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Full Version: Scenes of selflessness / sacrifice - Phil 2:19-30
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Ron Reed
Gang,

A friend is preaching on Phil 2:19-30 this Sunday - where Paul has just finished reminding them of the attitude they should have...be like Christ, be like me (Paul) and now he goes on to commend Timothy and Epaphroditus as examples, too. Timothy because he is such a
faithful, selfless person and Epaphroditus because he was willing to risk
his life for the sake of the gospel.

Anyhow, she'd love to find a film clip that illustrates genuine concern for others in a selfless way (like Timothy) or risking everything for others (like Epaphroditis).

Anybody?
BethR
Gee...I guess the sacrificial death of The Bad Lieutenant might be a bit much for church...

Oh, but there's a great "crucifixion" of Bryan Brown after he helps the English women who are prisoners of the Japanese in Malaysia in A Town Like Alice--although it's a mini-series, so that might rule it out.

Boromir's death in FotR?

Can't seem to think of any that don't involve some pretty disturbing imagery, right now.
Andrew
I'll bring up a favorite of mine: 'Widow of St Pierre' - husband and wife risk their reputations and ultimately their lives to rehabilitate a prisoner.
BethR
Oh--Babette's feast, of course! But it's probably too long.
Diane
How about Atticus Finch, who risks his reputation and safety to do the right thing in To Kill a Mockingbird? The courtroom scene and the nighttime confrontation outside the jail come to mind....

Diane
Ron Reed
QUOTE
Gee...I guess the sacrificial death of The Bad Lieutenant might be a bit much for church...


Now you're talking my language! Love that movie...

QUOTE

Boromir's death in FotR?


There's a Boromir in Fiddler on the Roof?

QUOTE

Can't seem to think of any that don't involve some pretty disturbing imagery, right now.


Yeah, that's one thing about sacrificial death...
MattPage
But are you after sacrificial death? I mean Tim & Eph were still alive when Paul wrote.

If you bear that in mind then you have dozens of heroic rescue scenes to chose from (Robin Hood Prince of theivees used to be used a lot here).

Matt
Michael Elliott
There's always The Poseidon Adventure. Gene Hackman's character and Shelly Winters' character both had sacrificial deaths of sorts.

An animated sacrificial "death" can be seen in The Iron Giant.

Star Trek films have a few examples he could use. It seems just about everyone on the crew offers himself as a sacrifice at one point or another.

A film that handles this issue very well is Return to Paradise but it probably wouldn't be appropriate in this setting.

Of course, there's all kinds of sacrifices not all of them resulting in death. I thought Hugh Grant's gesture in About a Boy - getting on stage to sing with Nicholas - was a form of sacrifice born out of friendship.
MattPage
Star Trek where Spock dies is another classic from the early days of video clips.

Iron Giant is a brilliant suggestion & good thougt with about a boy
IMHO


Matt
BethR
QUOTE
Of course, there's all kinds of sacrifices not all of them resulting in death.  I thought Hugh Grant's gesture in About a Boy - getting on stage to sing with Nicholas  - was a form of sacrifice born out of friendship.


Yes, that's a wonderful scene. Touching, and agonizingly funny.
Alan Thomas
Gee, I guess Breaking the Waves is right out...

How about in The Last of the Mohicans, :spoilers:


...when the British officer deliberately mis-translates Daniel Day-Lewis' instructions, and in doing so sacrifices himself to save them?
DanBuck
I feel a little Ayn-Randy when I try to answer this question. (To those of you thinking about Austin Powers-shame)

Anyway, every time I try to think of a selfless act, I can't help but find motives on the part of the sacrifice, even if they are "self actualization" or "act of love for someone else" or "For the good of loved ones" that ultimately makes the person feel better.

I guess I have doubts about the existance of pure altruism.

Examples:

Glory - they all go into battle knowing they'll probably dies, but its not for country, its part of their effort to become true men.

Life is Beautiful - (i know this is a can of worms) whatever the message of the film, Guido's risks and ultimate sacrifice may seem altruistic, but are they just so that he doesn't have to see his son suffering (with violence or the reality thereof)

Schindler's List - Is Schindler merely working toward absolution by helping all these jews?
Diane
If it's sacrificial death you want, how about Sydney Carton in A Tale of Two Cities? Everything he does is to save the husband of the woman he secretly loves.

Diane
MLeary
That is a great point Dan. I am teaching a several month long course on Pauline Theology right now, and every time I get to the circumstances of the letter to the Philippians, or the social exhortations of the Corinthian correspondence (in which he uses himself as an example) I can't help but think: What Paul is saying here transcends any existing ethic because it is an ethic that is bound up with an appreciation of the life and work of Jesus.

To try to find "examples" in culture of selflessness that mimic Paul's exhortation is to miss his point. Any examples we could find from films or literature fall short of the radical Christology that lurks behind his point there. (The theology there is so bound up with Paul's understanding of the realized eschatology accomplished in the work of Christ, and Paul's intent to establish the understanding the church as an eschatological community of faith, that it would be hard to find any examples that come close to matching his thoughts there.) All that examples can do us is bring us to the edge of human altruism, and expose to us the gulf that lies between human acts and Christ's acts.

But this is not to say that examples of selflessness then are useless.

Rather they can do for us what Wittgenstein did for language. They can show us precisely how far human moral action can go until it reaches that gulf. They take us to the edge and say: but here is where we will never be able to go, just by virtue of our nature.

Moral examples can also do what Thomas Aquinas did for religious language. They can show us that such examples are only analogical. They are only reflections of Christ's ideal act of selflessness in the sense that they help us to understand the pattern and intent of the act, but they fall so short of the reality of the act itself that it isn't reasonable to call them examples in any other way than by rote analogy.
Spoon
One word: Armageddon
Spoon
Buffy at the end of season 5
Xander at the end of season 6
and Spike at the end of season 7

Doyle, in the middle of the first season of angel
darla, i think season 2, in angel
angel, season 3, trying to save darla.

buffy and angel are both full of this kind of stuff.
DanBuck
Wow! M Leary!

That was MY point? I didn't know I was so smart. Actually... my reference to Ayn Rand was to indicate that I'm not sure there is such thing as selfless action... maybe even for God.

Jesus died on the cross because HE wanted some of us to join Him for eternity.

Its okay for him to be selfish though, because he's worthy. Just like its okay for him to be jealous.

No?
Alan Thomas
QUOTE
One word: Armageddon
Because a critic who goes to watch it is sacrificing himself for the sake of averting potential viewers? :wink:
MLeary
QUOTE
Wow! M Leary!

That was MY point?  I didn't know I was so smart. Actually... my reference to Ayn Rand was to indicate that I'm not sure there is such thing as selfless action... maybe even for God.

Jesus died on the cross because HE wanted some of us to join Him for eternity.  

Its okay for him to be selfish though, because he's worthy. Just like its okay for him to be jealous.

No?


Yeah. Well, I guess then that is a supreme act of self-glorification. God is glorified in the revelation in Jesus that He actually wants us to be with Him. Or something like that. Still all examples pale in terms of the significance though.
BethR
QUOTE
Buffy at the end of season 5
Xander at the end of season 6
and Spike at the end of season 7

Doyle, in the middle of the first season of angel
darla, i think season 2, in angel
angel, season 3, trying to save darla.

buffy and angel are both full of this kind of stuff.


Spoon! My hero! Darla in season 3 Angel--if you're thinking of her sacrificing herself for her son--but otherwise, yes--absolutely. I assumed most parishioners either wouldn't have the context to know what was going on, or would consider the Buffyverse anathema, so didn't propose these scenes. In addition to which, it's TV, not movies. But yes.
SDG
DanBuck wrote:
I feel a little Ayn-Randy when I try to answer this question. (To those of you thinking about Austin Powers-shame)

Anyway, every time I try to think of a selfless act, I can't help but find motives on the part of the sacrifice, even if they are "self actualization" or "act of love for someone else" or "For the good of loved ones" that ultimately makes the person feel better.

I guess I have doubts about the existance of pure altruism.
Here is my rebuttal.

When you do something out of love for someone else, yes, the fact that the other person was benefitted and you love them makes you happy.

However, when a person is engaged in a selfless and loving act, from a mother getting up in the night with a sick child to a Maximilian Kolbe laying down his life to save another, it would be wrong and bogus to construe the motives of such a person in any such way as, "If I do this selfless and loving thing, that will make me happy, and I like being happy, it feels good, so therefore for the sake of this happy feeling within myself I will do the thing."

The first reason why this is wrong, I think, is that it involves a mistaken view of happiness. Happiness in itself is not a "reward" or "motive" that can be considered abstractly from the goal or action in question as the motivating factor. Happiness, in this connection, means that we have done something for a reason that mattered to us, and, having now accomplished the thing that mattered to us, we are pleased and satisfied to have done so.

To get to the issue of motive, the real question we must ask is not "Did doing this make us happy?" but "Why did the thing matter to us in the first place?" If it mattered to us because we were egocentrically concerned about other peoples' opinions of us, or because it comforted our ego to be able to think of ourselves as selfless and noble people, then yes, selflessness is lacking. Perhaps with us fallen creatures this sort of motive is more common than we would like to admit.

Having said that, I don't for a moment believe that such selfish motives are always even a factor at all, let alone a key or significant factor. (In fact, even concern about other peoples' opinions might be selfless, if we were concerned not for our own sake but out of a desire to avoid giving scandal or causing offense.) And certainly the happiness we feel at having done something loving for someone else is inseparably bound up in the other person's good in such a way that it cannot be abstracted as a self-contained event or reality and made into a self-interested "reward" or "motive."

Going a bit deeper, I very much doubt that the goods involved in personal interactions can truly be parsed out neatly into "the other person's benefit" and "my benefit," because as social creatures our interactions involve interpersonal or social goods that subsist precisely in our transactions, not in individually wrapped personal-sized packages that reside solely with either party.

You can't look at a father reading a bedtime story with a child, or a pastor visiting a tiresome shut-in, and dole out what each of the parties is "getting out of" the transaction. You can try, but this reductionistic approach will have missed the specifically social and interpersonal dimension of what is really transpiring.
Actually... my reference to Ayn Rand was to indicate that I'm not sure there is such thing as selfless action... maybe even for God.

Jesus died on the cross because HE wanted some of us to join Him for eternity.

Its okay for him to be selfish though, because he's worthy. Just like its okay for him to be jealous.

No?
No.

Jesus died on the cross for our good, not his. Yes, HE wanted us to join him for eternity... but the REASON he wanted this was not in any way, shape, or form for HIS benefit, but for OURS.

It doesn't even increase his happiness. God is already infinitely and supremely happy and blessed, and his happiness and beatitude cannot in any measure be increased or decreased. He did it because he wanted to, but he wanted it for our benefit, not his. (Don't bother trying to understand it... It doesn't make sense in terms of human psychology, but that's the way it is with God.)

However, even though when we ourselves act for another person's good, it does increase our happiness, it does not follow that we are therefore by desire for our own happiness, as opposed to desire for the other person's good, or that there is anything "selfish" about our happiness.

Consider what absurdities follow from the view of happiness as self-interested motive if we consider scenarios in which the happiness we feel at someone else's good is not a consequence of anything that we have done for them, but simply something that we witnessed or even heard about one person doing for another.

Suppose that it was not ourselves, but our neighbor, that did the good turn for someone, and we saw or heard about that person's benefit, and it made us happy that good had befallen them. In principle, such happiness in the other person's good might be quite the same regardless whether the good turn was done by ourselves or by someone else.

Yet surely once we take the issue of "motive" out of it, it should be obvious that happiness at someone else's good fortune is hardly "selfish," at least in any essential or fundamental way. No one would accuse someone of being "selfish" simply for caring about someone else's well-being, on the grounds that by so caring he enabled himself to experience happiness at the other person's good. No one would say "It is really your own gratification, not the other person's good, that matters to you." Or, if someone did say that, he would be a mean and miserable creature with a parsimmonious and warped view of human nature, which, though itself warped, is not so warped as all that.

If we can take simple and unselfish happiness in another person's good when we ourselves are not the agents of such good, then clearly the other person's good in itself, and not just our own happiness. is a legitimate object of our care and concern. And therefore when we ourselves act for the sake of the other person's good and take happiness in that good once conferred, there is no essential reason to suspect that there is anything fundamentally different or "selfish" going on here than in the other case.

I'm not saying there are never cases of a person taking happiness in another person's good precisely because he himself has brought it about and is therefore proud of himself, or something. I'm simply saying that not all happiness at another person's good is in any way connected to oneself, and that this applies both to cases in which the happy person is not the agent of the good turn, and also to cases in which he is.
mrmando
Sydney Carton and Spock (at the end of Wrath of Khan) were the first two that came to mind...

How about Leslie Howard in Painted Desert? Obscure film, but it is available on video. Or Whatsherface at the end of X2? Or Jeff Goldblum distracting dinosaurs in Jurassic Park to get them away from kids?
Overstreet
Han Solo in Return of the Jedi.

Oh wait... no... that's the way Harrison Ford said he WANTED IT to end, but Lucas refused to let him sacrifice himself.
Overstreet
Gandalf in Moria in The Fellowship of the Ring.

Jack Lucas (Jeff Bridges) going for the grail to save Perry in The Fisher King.

Indiana Jones going for the grail to save his father in Last Crusade.

Hazel going for the holy hound dog to save his warren in Watership Down.

Bess sacrificing her dignity to ease her husband's pain in Breaking the Waves... misguided as it was.

Ripley at the end of Alien 3, misguided as that whole film was.

Obi-Wan in the original Star Wars.

The Iron Giant versus the atomic bomb.

This might be a stretch, but what about The Insider risking all that is dear to him to tell the truth?

Whoever said Widow of St. Pierre... amen to that, whatever Movieguide might say.
Anonymous
There is a beautiful moment toward the end of The Thin Red Line where private Witt volunteers for a mission. The officer tells him "You don't have to go, private, there are others who will volunteer..."
Witt interrupts: "No... I want to go, sir.. in case something bad happens....I want to be there."

To me that seems to come closest to what it means to be filled with the spirit of Christ. That, and everything that follows in the life of Witt.
Caleb
Humphrey Bogart at the end of Casablanca.

Okwe in Dirty Pretty Things.
Ron Reed
Here's the email I received from my preachin' pal. She really appreciated what you had to say;
Thanks so much for your help. It was fascinating reading the website and all the comments. I thought you might be interested in what I finally decided to use.

That passage has two kinds of people that Paul commends, Timothy, the steady, humble, "patron saint of the second in command" faithful one and Epaphroditus, the one who "risked everything" (gambling term) including his life for the work of the gospel. So I wanted to have an example of quiet determination and steady "keeping on" for Timothy and for Epaphroditus someone who risked everything for the sake of another.

For the Timothy one, I used Alvin Straight in "the Straight Story" based on a true story from 1994 where Alvin (Richard Farnsworth) who could no longer drive his car, drove his 1966 riding lawnmower 260 miles from Iowa to Mt. Zion, Wisconsin, to be reconciled to his brother Lyle. They had not spoken in 10 years and Lyle had just had a stroke. I used a combination of scenes, including the last half of the talk with the priest at the campfire, a bit of him on the road with his "rig" and then jumping to the scene where he gets to Lyle's place. Very beautifully understated. Have you seen it?

It made me wonder what we would be willing to do, what kind of determination we should show in seeking to help others "be reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5: 14-21) For the Epaphroditus one, I used the part from the end of the first LOTR movie where Sam almost drowns following Frodo. I esp. like the part when Frodo says "I'm going to Mordor alone." and Sam replies, "Of, course you are, and I'm going with you!" Sam simply isn't thinking of himself at all. Amazing. Anyway, thanks again for all your help, it was very useful to read all the comments and I will store away the suggestions for future ref.

Blessings, Margaret
As Jeffrey recently said, I love this board! You're great. I'll be noting all these suggestions - they make a great list.
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