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Greg Wright
QUOTE (SDG @ Jan 17 2008, 09:21 AM) *
FWIW, Greg, I not only agree with most of your latest post, I also agree with most of Mando's latest post AND with Xn's latest post. And I still stand by the points I have been trying to make

Thanks, that's cool, and you should. You've made some very good points.

When definitions are considered, I ultimately don't think there are a lot of differences being expressed on this thread; but the definitions themselves are what I think need to be tweaked; and when they are, the conversation takes on a slightly different flavor -- one less about institutional paranoia (which we, as Christians, despise when its directed at us -- so let's be fair-minded in the opposite direction) and more about people (the proper domain of both arts and faith).
Peter T Chattaway
mrmando wrote:
: 4. Instead of comparing portrayals of Christians to those of ethnic and gender groups, what if we compared them to portrayals of people who practice other religions? Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, pagans, witches?

Yeah. And personally, I've been saying for years that Christians could learn something from gays, given that we are both "invisible minorities" (as opposed to ethnic and gender groups which, of course, are "visible" -- with very very few exceptions, e.g. Anthony Hopkins in The Human Stain and John Travolta in Hairpsray, black characters are played by actors who are just as black as the characters are, and female characters are played by actors who are just as female as the characters are; but a gay man can play a straight man and vice versa, and a non-Christian can play a Christian and vice versa, cf. the gay actor who played a Christian martyr in End of the Spear).

: 5. And how come, when a Christian IS portrayed positively, he's usually either a white Catholic or a black Protestant?

Because some ghettos are more acceptable than others, I suppose. This becomes especially grating when Protestant characters are turned into Catholics for the film (e.g. Contact) or displaced by Catholics who have been invented just for the film (e.g. Amistad) or made to behave like Catholics because the filmmakers simply don't know the difference (e.g. Space Cowboys). "All religions look alike," and all that.

Greg Wright wrote:
: I think a more useful definition of a "Hollywood" film is "any film distributed, either theatrically or on DVD, by any of the Big Seven distributors (and not by their botique labels)." That is, films that the industry thinks have a chance of being widely successful outside niche markets. And from this standpoint, you're going to be hard pressed to identify any specific agenda in Hollywood films -- other than that of the general public, who buys these films. (And from this standpoint, Beyond the Gates counts because it was heavily promoted by Fox for its American DVD release.)

No, DVD releases don't count (especially given The Invisible Man's comments above re: straight-to-DVD releases); it is very common for independent films to be distributed theatrically by small distributors and then released on video by major corporations (e.g. The Passion of the Christ, distributed theatrically by Newmarket and on video by, uh, Fox). In fact, I'm not sure "boutique labels" even EXIST on video. (E.g., A Mighty Heart was distributed theatrically by Paramount Vantage, a "boutique label", and on DVD by Paramount Home Video.)

But even if we did count DVD releases, was Shooting Dogs really promoted all THAT heavily to the "general public"? Or just to the Christian market? (The film was already on DVD in Canada, via a different distributor, before the film had even come out theatrically in the States, so I wouldn't know.)

(All that said, I would like to say that I agree with most of the agreeing going on here.)
mrmando
QUOTE
I pretty much agree with everything in Mando's last post, too.


QUOTE ( @ Jan 17 2008, 06:21 AM) *
I also agree with most of Mando's latest post


The funny thing is, I don't believe that last post contradicted anything I said earlier. Maybe I'm just getting better at expressing what I mean.

I didn't mention Judaism in point 4 of that post, about religions. I should have — adherents of every religion should aspire to be depicted in film the way Jews are depicted. There was, IIRC, quite a bit of flap among critics and within the industry over the recent version of The Merchant of Venice, even though Al Pacino did absolutely everything he could to give us a fully humanized Shylock with completely understandable motivations. (It occurs to me that Shylock's pursuit of revenge has much in common with Hamlet's, or Sweeney Todd's: it leads to destruction of everything he loves. What if someone rewrote Merchant of Venice with Shylock as a tragic hero? Hmm...) But SDG could probably name a hundred films that took in more box office than Merchant, contained negative stereotypes of Christians, and somehow failed to generate the same kind of scorn that Merchant did. The last film in which I remember seeing an unfair stereotype of a Jew is the original cut of Harold Lloyd's Safety Last. The Jewish pawnbroker was later edited out of that film — and that was in flippin' 1924.

So, without getting all paranoid and anti-Semitic, Christians ought to ask themselves: "Why are Jews more often treated fairly in films, and what can we learn from them?"
Greg Wright
QUOTE (Peter T Chattaway @ Jan 17 2008, 11:50 AM) *
No, DVD releases don't count

Why not? What's the difference between an independent film being distributed by one of the Big Seven for theatrical release and getting picked up later for DVD distribution? The issues are the same: small projects getting enough attention to warrant a distribution deal, and a conviction on the part of the distributor that there's wide market appeal. (Clearly, in the case of Beyond the Gates, they were wrong, however.)

I think there's a strong "theatrical releases are the only ones that matter" bias going on here.

Is the issue what's happening in theaters, or what's happening in movies? I thought we were talking about "Hollywood movies," not merely "Hollywood theatrical releases."

QUOTE
I'm not sure "boutique labels" even EXIST on video.

They sure do. Not as prevalent, but they do exist. (I see tons of press releases for video releases.) Not every distributor has them, but many do.

QUOTE
was Shooting Dogs really promoted all THAT heavily to the "general public"?

Dunno how to answer that to your satisfaction. The publicist was not one of the ones that caters to the Christian market, if that's what you want to know. It was a mainstream promotion.
SDG
QUOTE (mrmando @ Jan 17 2008, 01:53 PM) *
The funny thing is, I don't believe that last post contradicted anything I said earlier. Maybe I'm just getting better at expressing what I mean.

Another quick aside: I don't think you've contradicted yourself either. Maybe I need to get better at expressing what I mean. Will try to post this weekend.
mrmando
Well, the original, two-sentence statement of mine that you quoted near the top of this thread was deliberately stated in a pithy, provocative manner, and was probably due for some unpacking.
Peter T Chattaway
mrmando wrote:
: The last film in which I remember seeing an unfair stereotype of a Jew is the original cut of Harold Lloyd's Safety Last. The Jewish pawnbroker was later edited out of that film -- and that was in flippin' 1924.

The original cut of Disney's Three Little Pigs featured

Greg Wright wrote:
: What's the difference between an independent film being distributed by one of the Big Seven for theatrical release and getting picked up later for DVD distribution?

Well, for one thing, there are "boutique labels" in theatrical distribution, but not so much in DVD distribution. Paramount Vantage (the "boutique label") and Paramount Pictures (the "Big Seven" member) are separate theatrical distributors, but on DVD it's all "Paramount Home Entertainment". Focus Features (the "boutique label") and Universal Pictures (the "Big Seven" member) are separate theatrical distributors, but on DVD it's all "Universal Home Entertainment". Fox Searchlight and Fox Walden (the "boutique labels") and 20th Century Fox (the "Big Seven" member) are separate theatrical distributors, but on DVD it's all just Fox.

Granted, Miramax (the "boutique label") and Disney (the "Big Seven" member) seem to be separate labels in both theatrical and home-video realms. But I don't know if that extends to having separate publicists etc.

Of course, it almost never happens that an independent film is picked up for distribution by "one of the Big Seven"; usually they are picked up by independent distributors or by boutique labels. But occasionally you do get exceptions, e.g. Narc, and I don't think we've defined yet what category such films should belong to.

: I think there's a strong "theatrical releases are the only ones that matter" bias going on here.

If we are discussing "mainstream cinema", then yes, of course.
mrmando
QUOTE (Peter T Chattaway @ Jan 17 2008, 11:31 AM) *
mrmando wrote:
: The last film in which I remember seeing an unfair stereotype of a Jew is the original cut of Harold Lloyd's Safety Last. The Jewish pawnbroker was later edited out of that film -- and that was in flippin' 1924.

The original cut of Disney's Three Little Pigs featured


...the wolf dressing up as a stereotyped Jewish peddler. (Is THAT why Hitler reportedly loved that cartoon so much?) Sanitized in a later release.

But I may have conflated that with Safety Last, because I appear to be incorrect in stating that there's a version of Safety Last without that Jewish character. And I got the year wrong: 1923, not 1924. I hope I haven't weakened my point too much.
Greg Wright
QUOTE (Peter T Chattaway @ Jan 17 2008, 02:31 PM) *
for one thing, there are "boutique labels" in theatrical distribution, but not so much in DVD distribution

Again, I think this appears to be the case more than it is. If you browse DVDFile's "master list" of distributors, for instance, it's obvious that there's a lot of consolidation of distribution services (and that would include sites that host promotional materials, contracting work to publicists, etc., even beyond what that list indicates).

But the boutique labels that actually produced the films still have their labels on those releases; and for DVD releases from Fox alone, I've had to retrieve press materials from at least four different sites -- regardless of the (justifiable) impression you have about Fox Home Entertainment being monolithic; it's not, in practical terms. So I don't think your distinction is "real" -- even though it would certainly be useful in distinguishing between what's "Hollywood" and what isn't. (And you know what my own preferred definition would be, and that I don't care for your apparent definition because I find it too narrow. The boutique distinction tends to be less useful to the distributors on DVD because there are few "arthouse" DVD stores in the same way that there are arthouse distributors.)

QUOTE
it almost never happens that an independent film is picked up for distribution by "one of the Big Seven"

Again, that depends on the definition of "independent." Some random samples of Paramount releases:

Stardust Production Companies / Studios: Marv Films, DiBonaventura Pictures, Ingenious Film Partners, Truenorth Productions
School of Rock Production Companies / Studios: Scott Rudin Productions, Paramount
Mean Girls Production Companies / Studios: M.G. Films, Broadway Video Motion Pictures, Paramount

It's very rare that a major studio is the sole or even primary producing partner. So are these three studio films or independent films? If "independent" simply means "any film not picked up by one of the Bigs," then they are studio films. But if "independent" means "originating in a production company that is not one of the Bigs," then the vast majority of films (including these three) are independent productions that have either been co-financed, coproduced, or distributed by the Bigs.

So I've never much cared for the "independent" label. It's convenient for marketing purposes, but not for understanding the way the business really works. (Except to acknowledge that some films get distribution deals before they're made, while most don't get those until after they're made.) It's a somewhat artificial distinction, especially since practically every production company would love to get a producing / distribution deal with one of the Bigs.

And given that the business is all about competition and distinguishing products from one another (just like any industry), even this aspect of the discussion points out that it's pretty fruitless to talk about what the "Hollywood" industry agenda is -- aside from making money.

Sorry. I forgot to use the [broken record] tag back there... I'll shut up now.
Overstreet
Ken Morefield blogs his two-cents on the subject. (And inspires comments!)

And Catholic Media Review picks up on it by re-posting my own blog entry. That gets a lively thread of comments started.
SDG
QUOTE (Jeffrey Overstreet @ Jan 17 2008, 07:50 PM) *
Ken Morefield blogs his two-cents on the subject. (And inspires comments!)

Sheesh.
The Invisible Man
QUOTE (SDG @ Jan 17 2008, 11:19 PM) *
QUOTE (Jeffrey Overstreet @ Jan 17 2008, 07:50 PM) *
Ken Morefield blogs his two-cents on the subject. (And inspires comments!)

Sheesh.


Double sheesh!. I'll give him "one problem with the request"...

Also, that Catholic blog missed out the bit about the millennium. People over there are nominating "The Bells of St Mary's" and "Braveheart" for crying out loud.

Also, the context of my original post has gone. I don't actually mind that, but people are now telling me I'm looking for "affirmation" or whathaveyou. In my reply to Ben Johnson in the "Sweeney Todd" thread (it's post #96 if anyone is interested), I was trying to make a simple point about balance. I keep sitting through DVDs in which Christians are either portrayed as bad guys or idiots, and it has started to make the vein in my temple throb. Maybe I'm just renting the wrong movies...

Also, my so-called challenge was actually a rhetorical question, but I see how, given my clumsy writing style, it seems otherwise.

Oh, and yes, you can order red wine in certain cinemas here.

Also, it's passed my bedtime. Nurse, the screens!



The Invisible Man
To back up a little...

QUOTE (SDG @ Jan 16 2008, 06:44 PM) *
Do stories and images influence how we understand ourselves in relation to our world? Do they influence how other people understand their world, including our place in their world? Do they influence expectations, assumptions, attitudes, values? Do expectations, assumptions, attitudes and values matter? Do they affect how people treat one another? Might they be a factor in general receptiveness to other points of view, including the gospel?


I think the answer to all that is a resounding yes. Films reflect society whilst simultaneously creating society. They contribute to the culture and influence the culture. This is is why I mentioned "Videodrome" in the "Sweeney Todd" thread. Cronenberg offers us a good metaphor, I think (though in "Videodrome" it is TV which defines our reality). Before I became a Christian, I firmly believed all Christians to be naive or quaint (Ned Flanders-types, in fact), even though I didn't actually know any Christians personally, or know anything much about Christianity and the Bible. Everything I knew came from movies or TV, and it was always completely negative (and things here haven't gotten any better. I recently read a news story in the Independent newspaper in which the reporter derided the Alpha Course for producing Christians of the "happy, clappy" and "homophobic" sort. So much for unbiased reporting...).

In the British media (TV, radio, and newspapers) the only high profile American Christians are fundamentalists, and they are presented as figures of fun or derision. British film critic Mark Kermode, who calls himself a Christian, makes insulting generalizations about American Christians all the time. The word "stupid" tends to come up a lot (on a personal note, I have stopped listening to his radio programme since his recent review of "The Golden Compass").

As I wrote in "Sweeney Todd":

QUOTE (The Invisible Man @ Jan 16 2008, 10:53 AM) *
I have had many encounters with non-believers who are convinced that Christians are intolerant and that the church is corrupt. They think we are stupid (we even had an atheist register on this board under the nick "Grow Up"). It is only when you challenge their presuppositions that you discover that many people have no real reason for holding such views. Their strange ideas seem to have come through osmosis - through the lowbrow entertainment which defines their reality.

Why is the church evil? Because movies constantly present the church as evil. Why is being gay normal? Because "Will And Grace" is a funny show. Why is it perfectly safe and acceptable to flit from relationship to relationship? Because the characters in "Friends" are so glamorous, and they all sleep around, don't they? Why is taking drugs cool? Because rock stars and sportsmen all do drugs, and rock stars and sportsmen are our role models; and so on, and so on, and so on.
mrmando
QUOTE (The Invisible Man @ Jan 17 2008, 04:35 PM) *
Also, the context of my original post has gone. I don't actually mind that, but people are now telling me I'm looking for "affirmation" or whathaveyou.

Maybe SDG's right about that not being the best term.

Culture-shaping is a process; culture is the result. I was trying to point out two things:

1) It's illogical for Christians to expect the result to favor us when we haven't been involved in the process, just as one wouldn't expect to be elected dogcatcher without running for the office.

2) Our primary point of reference, the source of our identity, is supposed to be Christ and his church, not culture. (This, however, doesn't mean we shouldn't be involved in culture-shaping, as SDG points out with his excellent rhetorical questions.)

The extent to which any particular individual does or doesn't seek "affirmation" from films is beyond my capacity to judge. I do think, however, that Christians in the past century have been less than completely successful at addressing the various tensions and/or interrelationships between 1) and 2).

It certainly is unfair that Christians aren't better represented in film, but I think Christians will have to do more than simply point out the injustice. We'd be appealing to a sense of fairness that might no longer exist ... having been largely supplanted by a sense of political correctness.
Peter T Chattaway
mrmando wrote:

: : The original cut of Disney's Three Little Pigs featured[/quote]
:
: ...the wolf dressing up as a stereotyped Jewish peddler.

Ack! I forgot to finish that thought; thanks for picking it up. (That must have been during one of my competing-toddlers-demanding-to-sit-on-my-lap-while-my-nursing-wife-asks-me-to-get-her-a-drink moments. Life is crazy here.)

One interesting thing about the role of the Jewish stereotype in this particular film is that the Jewish peddler is considered SAFE. The Big Bad Wolf HIDES the fact that he is dangerous by pretending to be a Jewish peddler. (Perhaps some ultra-sensitive soul will say that this is still a negative stereotype (because it supposedly implies that all Jewish peddlers are wolves in disguise), but if we're going to go THAT route, we would also have to argue that the Big Bad Wolf's OTHER disguises (baby sheep, etc.) are being similarly maligned. And they aren't. So that's that.)

Greg Wright wrote:

: : . . . for one thing, there are "boutique labels" in theatrical distribution, but not so much in DVD distribution . . .
:
: Again, I think this appears to be the case more than it is.

I guess that's possible. When I checked various films at the IMDb and/or Amazon.com, the DVD distributor was almost always listed as the Big Video label, whereas the theatrical distributors varied between Big Movie studios and Little Movie studios; the main exception to this was Amazon.com's designation of Chicago as being distributed on DVD by Miramax (and not by, say, Disney or Buena Vista).

: The boutique distinction tends to be less useful to the distributors on DVD because there are few "arthouse" DVD stores in the same way that there are arthouse distributors.

Good point. Plus, audiences are more likely to take a chance on riskier fare on video than they are in theatres. Hence the expression, "Wait for the video."

: : . . . it almost never happens that an independent film is picked up for distribution by "one of the Big Seven" . . .
:
: Again, that depends on the definition of "independent." Some random samples of Paramount releases:
: Stardust Production Companies / Studios: Marv Films, DiBonaventura Pictures, Ingenious Film Partners, Truenorth Productions
: School of Rock Production Companies / Studios: Scott Rudin Productions, Paramount
: Mean Girls Production Companies / Studios: M.G. Films, Broadway Video Motion Pictures, Paramount

If Paramount ITSELF was a production company, then that's enough for me to make a film not-so-"independent". (Note my ambivalence above about the status of America's Heart and Soul, which apparently counted Disney among its producers even though it got almost no distribution.)

Hence, if Walden makes a film that gets picked up by nobody bigger than Samuel Goldwyn, such as Amazing Grace (which was apparently produced by several companies but NOT by Samuel Goldwyn, its eventual American distributor), then I don't mind putting that film on the "independent" rather than "Hollywood" side of the ledger. But if Walden brings Disney on board as a production partner on a film like The Chronicles of Narnia, then that is definitely a "Hollywood" film.

And I do make a distinction between "picking up" a film, especially after it has been made, and "producing" a film.

: Sorry. I forgot to use the [broken record] tag back there... I'll shut up now.

Hey, the record isn't THAT bad. smile.gif
Greg Wright
QUOTE (Peter T Chattaway @ Jan 18 2008, 06:41 PM) *
I do make a distinction between "picking up" a film, especially after it has been made, and "producing" a film.

I certainly agree that there are distinctions to be made. I'm just hoping that this little part of the discussion (as inane as it may have seemed to Ken!) may have helped illustrate that attributing specific monolithic agendas (be they anti-Christian or pro-Christian or pro-donkey) to "Hollywood" is anything but a cut-and-dried proposition. Business relationships dictate which films get made, how they get made, and how they find their way to audiences; ideology is very hard to spread even within a studio, much less through producing partnerships or across the industry.
theoddone33
Christians in the United States, in my observation, want to feel like they are being "persecuted". While this doesn't resemble reality at all, I think this sort of mindset needs to be considered while having discussions like this.

With that said... do I think Hollywood is anti-Christian? Absolutely not. Hollywood is pro-money, and occasionally pro-art. Humor or derision aimed at Christianity exist in movies because they reflect real life... establishing a point of commonality with the average viewer.

I was at lunch with some coworkers the other day and Jesus Camp came up. I haven't seen it, but their description was that it was frightening, appalling, etc. I felt the same way about the few minutes of Hell House that I saw. Did those films go out of their way to portray Christians in a certain light... or is Christianity as it's practiced in the United States just incredibly frightening to people? I suspect the latter, and I suspect it's the result of a major error or two in U.S. Christian thinking.

So I guess in a lot of ways I feel like "are Christians being portrayed positively or negatively in the biggest cultural mirror we have available (ie, film and television)?" isn't really something worth a huge amount of thought, except as a tool to determine whether Christians are having a positive effect on society.

And... regardless of whether or not Christians are or are not practicing their religion in the footsteps of its founder, pointing fingers at Hollywood accomplishes less than nothing.
mrmando
At his blog, Peter posted an excerpt from a Boston Globe article, which contains a comment I find illustrative of a point I wanted to make here:
QUOTE
Since the election of the current President Bush, however, the times, they are a-slowin' down again. On the DVD of "Fast Times," director Amy Heckerling says that she "could never make that movie now," because its depiction of guilt-free sex (and, presumably, consequence-free abortion) is "unacceptable in the current political climate."


Is this not an example of a filmmaker denying her ability to shape culture by claiming that all she can do is reflect it? And is she really trying to say that the "current political climate" is more restrictive toward teen sex than the political climate under Ronald Reagan?

Maybe Bob Dole put more of a scare into Hollywood than I thought. Or maybe, if Christians and conservatives like Dole are guilty of overstating the influence of film on culture, then Ms. Heckerling is equally guilty of understating it.

Christian
Mando, it's an interesting quote, and I had thought about commenting at Peter's blog. It seems to me that Fast Times does have some guilt about sex. The Jennifer Jason Leigh character is reluctant to take lessons from the Phoebe Cates character on oral sex, or maybe she's just embarrassed. She also has to slip out of her room in the dark of night to get picked up and head to the dugout, where she has her sexual encounter, right? Does that not reflect some form of "guilt" in terms of what she thinks her parents might think of her action?

We don't see her wrestling with the morality of sex, IIRC, but I don't know that it's "guilt"-free.

As for Heckerling's comment, I took it to mean that she couldn't get funding for a movie with guilt-free sex. So the culture isn't so much hers to shape as it is for others to finance such shaping.
mrmando
Never having seen the film, I'm not qualified to comment on the presence or absence of guilt in the sexual encounters it depicts.

But if producers are no longer willing to write checks for films depicting guilt-free sex and consequence-free abortion, then perhaps conservatives and Christians have more influence in Hollywood than they realize. I would argue that sex and abortion always have emotional and spiritual consequences if not material ones.
The Rev
QUOTE (SDG @ Jan 16 2008, 09:43 AM) *
From the Sweeney Todd thread:

QUOTE (The Invisible Man @ Jan 16 2008, 07:53 AM) *
Can you name twenty Hollywood movies made since the turn of the millennium that present Christianity in a positive light? How about twenty films with recognizably Christian characters who act in a dignified or half-decent manner?

I poked around a bit looking for an appropriate existing thread to tack on a reply to this challenge, but couldn't find anything obviously right. (I did start an earlier thread about anti-Christian and anti-Catholic films, but I think a more general discussion deserves a new thread.)

Anyway, although the immediate topic of my current post has been delimited by Invisible Man's comments to comprise only positive depictions of Christians or Christianity in recent Hollywood films, I've left the thread title open to much more expansive discussion going forward.

I really should be doing something else at the moment, but I couldn't resist pulling together a quick list of titles that I think at least arguably satisfy the criteria for one or the other of IM's two categories above. I'm sure there are others.
  1. Amazing Grace
  2. America's Heart and Soul
  3. Because of Winn-Dixie
  4. Bridge to Terabithia
  5. Charlotte's Web
  6. Cinderella Man
  7. Count of Monte Cristo, The
  8. Daredevil
  9. Exorcism of Emily Rose, The
  10. Ladder 49
  11. Lars and the Real Girl
  12. Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World
  13. My Big Fat Greek Wedding
  14. Nativity Story, The
  15. New World, The
  16. Patriot, The
  17. Return to Me
  18. Rookie, The
  19. Serenity
  20. Signs
  21. 6th Day, The
  22. Spider-Man
  23. Tears of the Sun
  24. Walk to Remember, A
  25. We Are Marshall
  26. World Trade Center
  27. X2
Other thoughts?


An interesting albeit ridiculous challenge. Hollywood is far more respectful and positive towards Christianity than most Christians believe...
Add these films to the list:

28. Magnolia
29. Lars & the Real Girl
30. The End of the Affair
31. The Spitfire Grill
32. Amistad
33. The Mission
34. Dead Man Walking
35. O Brother, Where Art Thou?
36. Contact
37. Romero
38. Jesus of Montreal
39. Babette's Feast
40. Life is Beautiful
41. Chocolat
42. Simon Birch
43. A Man For All Seasons
44. Glory
45. Shadowlands
46. The Apostle
47. Places in the Heart
48. Evan Almighty
49. Bruce Almighty
50. Chariots of Fire
51. Tender Mercies
52. In America

More will come to me...let's keep adding to this list!
mrmando
Rev, most of your examples don't fit the specific parameters we are dealing here with: major-studio films made since 2000.

And Chocolat positively portrays Christians? Really? A naive priest under the thumb of an overbearing mayor? Lenten observation presented as foolish, hypocritical intolerance?

Not sure what's so positive about the Christians in Contact, either ... be they the touchy-feely spiritual counselor who sleeps with a woman he barely knows or the wild-eyed hippie preacher who tries to sabotage the space project.
SDG
Rev: Most of the items in your list don't fit the description. Either they're non-Hollywood, pre-2000, or both. (And at least one of your films, Lars and the Real Girl, was on my original list.)

Some items on your list seem pretty dubious. Bruce Almighty is generically pro-God, but there's nothing "Christian" about it. And while it may be possible to make a case for the positive spiritual implications of films like Magnolia and Chocolat (and I would certainly dissent on the latter, at least), I don't think it's plausible to argue that either depicts Christianity itself or Christians in a positive light.
SDG
Okay. Lemme try this again.

I think we can all agree that business concerns play an enormous role in Hollywood decision making. In a word, Hollywood producers want to make money. To say "Hollywood makes what sells" is an oversimplification in a number of respects, but certainly there's a lot of truth in it. The people in Hollywood are acutely aware that the Passion audience's dollars are as green as everybody else's. If they could find a way to make religiously themed films that were consistently successful with religious audiences, I'm sure they would jump at the opportunity.

It is also true that, appearances at times to the contrary notwithstanding, Hollywood movies are not actually made on an assembly line based purely on demographic studies and focus groups conducted throughout the U.S. and around the world. They may be packaged and sold that way, but even the most blandly generic Hollywood product represents an enormous investment of time and energy by a whole lot of people, many of whom live in a particular cultural milieu.

I understand that Hollywood isn't a homogenous Star Trek planet. Nor is the rest of the United States. Still, it seems fair to say that the mix of things you have in Hollywood has a particular character, and that there are a lot of places you could go in the United States that, culturally speaking, are a lot more like one another than they are like Hollywood. Homogenous or not, it's not hard to imagine the effect of visiting another planet, or having people respond to you as if you were from another planet, in a meeting of Hollywood and middle America.

The truism that culture affects the media as well as the media affecting the culture is certainly valid, but it's also true that the particular cultural milieu that influences a lot of the media is often markedly different from the cultural milieu in which a lot of other people live.

Pitches and unproduced scripts are plentiful. Probably nearly all Hollywood producers of any stature pass on far more potential pictures than they make. The few that they does pick are usually films they think will sell in flyover country and around the world, but in addition to that there has to be something about that script that grabs the producer in some way. It has to feel right, to connect with him somehow. In general, a good script is one want to tell your friends about -- a script for a film that will make you money, certainly, but also one that will be admired by people who matter, one that will make other people in your town want to work with you, and possibly one that will win awards... awards that are not voted on by people who live in flyover country.

As I noted in an earlier post, a significant asterisk to the truism that "Hollywood makes what sells" is that there are no formulas or tables to tell you exactly what sells and what doesn't. A few films each year are a sure thing, and most films come with some sort of minimum expected return -- but it's certainly not a science, or even an art, as demonstrated by the number of unexpectedly poor performers and breakout hits.

When that happens, determining the reason for success or failure is another exercise in speculation and subjectivity. Did Christian backlash damage The Golden Compass in the U.S., or did audiences fail to show up because it looked like a mediocre fantasy film with no big stars? Did The Nativity Story flop because the subject matter failed to attract, or because the treatment wasn't very exciting?

And it doesn't stop there. Granted the decision to make a particular film, there are all sorts of intermediate decisions about shaping that film in order to maximize its appeal (which, again, is a subjective consideration). Religious elements in source material may be downplayed or emphasized, expunged or added, spun positive or negative. Islamic religious elements raise one set of sociological and political concerns; Christian religious elements raise another set.

The decision to put a rosary in the hands of a particular character or to eliminate religious references in regard to another character is probably rarely decided purely on the basis of "What will sell?" The film's overall viability in the marketplace is probably not substantially affected by such decisions; in making such decisions, filmmakers probably usually fall back on their own personal views and the expectations of their own cultural milieu. I don't think it's overstating things to say that in some circumstances any reference to or mention of Christianity in a film would inevitably be through the lens of one's opinion of the Bush administration, for instance.

In brief, the whole business is an enormously subjective process, and there are limits on the extent to which the Hollywood producer can tell middle America, "I'm just making what people want to see." Is that so? Which people? How do you know? How well do you know them? How disinterestedly are you even trying to make what you think they want to see?

If movies are a mirror to the culture, they are a very imperfect mirror, filtered through layers and layers of subjectivity, generally reflecting a particular cultural milieu and often significantly in tension with other cultural milieus, even the ones they are trying to sell to. You know the famous Steinberg New Yorker map of the world? Sure, it's an exaggeration, but it wouldn't be funny if there were no truth to it.

Besides, whatever filmmakers may say to the media about merely "reflecting the culture," amongst themselves -- you can hear it in awards speeches -- many movers and shakers in Hollywood are firmly convinced of their ability and even manifest duty to make a difference, to be a force for change in the world. The conviction that we -- we few -- have the moral high ground need to show the way to others less fortunate, is alive and well in Tinseltown -- as elsewhere (I am not here vindicating anyone against anyone else). In other words, to "make what sells" is not the sole goal; there is also the goal to sell us what they think we should buy, to make what is good for us, and to make us like it.

A number of cultural conservatives have emphasized what is claimed as a sort of religion gap between the cultural milieu of Hollywood and that of much of the rest of America. Again, I am not here adjudicating amongst aggrieved parties; where there is a gap, individuals on both sides may be at fault, and what if anything is to be done about it by either party is entirely up for discussion. Say whatever you want about how believers' behavior and attitudes and what are constructive or non-constructive approaches. I'm simply trying to describe the situation, in part.

The religion gap, as far as I can tell, is real. By such measures as, e.g., regular worship service attendance, identification with a particular religious creed and probably belief in God, as well as in moral attitudes regarding, e.g., marriage, sex and abortion, the general milieu of Hollywood is at odds with that of much of the rest of the country. It also seems plausible to me that negative or suspicious attitudes toward "organized religion" and religious believers are probably more common and stronger in Hollywood than elsewhere -- and again, I'm not assigning blame or exculpating anyone.

I'm simply saying I don't think it's hysteria or persecution complex for Christians to feel that there is a real pattern in Hollywood movies of bias against Christianity and Christians. This is not to condemn or excuse anyone, or to recommend any particular course of action, such as standing on our roofs and wagging our fingers at Hollywood. I'm just saying.
Darrel Manson
QUOTE (SDG @ Jan 19 2008, 08:27 PM) *
I'm simply saying I don't think it's hysteria or persecution complex for Christians to feel that there is a real pattern in Hollywood movies of bias against Christianity and Christians. This is not to condemn or excuse anyone, or to recommend any particular course of action, such as standing on our roofs and wagging our fingers at Hollywood. I'm just saying.
We'll just have to live in disagreement here. Maybe it's because I'm a Left Coaster. Maybe it's because I find Hollywood to the right of me. Maybe it's because I think many in the church can't get by if they don't feel persecuted. Maybe it's because I see many more boutique films than mainstream films. (Limiting the parameters to mainstream Hollywood, I think, skews the results.) Maybe it's because I have as much distrust of Christians and Christianity as any outsider -- maybe more because I know more.
Greg Wright
QUOTE (SDG @ Jan 19 2008, 11:27 PM) *
Okay. Lemme try this again.

A fine summation of your thinking. And until you draw your conclusions, I wouldn't really disagree with anything.

But some things I still think are missing from your analysis:

1. That the pressure to make a movie that will sell broadly is directly proportional to its budget. Hence, the more likely we are to classify a film as a "Hollywood" film (because of the way it was financed and produced), the more likely it is to have potentially offensive religious and political elements stripped out. Deliberately, with a great deal of anguish along the way on everyone's parts about something as simple as rosary beads in a character's hand.

2. That studios are in competition with one another. This, by definition, reduces the likelihood that "Hollywood" will exhibit an antagonistic trend toward a particular demographic. (I do think it's fair to say, btw, that under Bob Shaye New Line most has most often exhibited characters that negatively portray Christianity.)

3. That the movies Hollywood insiders get most self-congratulatory about are NOT those that "sell" the best. We all know the Oscars are the epitome of ideologues back-slapping one another, and it's the primary venue for the values-selling that you talk about. But the rest of the country knows full well that if Hollywood only churned out the kind of films that win Oscars, the studios would go bankrupt. And the studios know that, too.

So at the end of the day, I'm afraid I really have to agree more with Darrel, for instance, than with you. In general, business considerations will always trump ideology in Hollywood, and the more "personal" a film's vision, the more likely it is to not be a "studio" film.
The Invisible Man
QUOTE (SDG @ Jan 20 2008, 04:27 AM) *
The decision to put a rosary in the hands of a particular character or to eliminate religious references in regard to another character is probably rarely decided purely on the basis of "What will sell?" The film's overall viability in the marketplace is probably not substantially affected by such decisions; in making such decisions, filmmakers probably usually fall back on their own personal views and the expectations of their own cultural milieu. I don't think it's overstating things to say that in some circumstances any reference to or mention of Christianity in a film would inevitably be through the lens of one's opinion of the Bush administration, for instance.


I tend to think that you have hit the nail on the head with that comment. American films are the way they are because a lot of the "artists" who make them are freewheeling liberal-types who view the church as the establishment and want to "stick it to the man".

Peter T Chattaway
Darrel Manson wrote:
: Limiting the parameters to mainstream Hollywood, I think, skews the results.

Perhaps, but it is my vague and hazy impression that non-mainstream filmmaking allows for more explicit expressions of ANTI-Christianity, too. I remember watching the Michael Medved video Hollywood Vs. Religion in the mid-1990s and thinking that many of the anti-religious examples he cited were non-mainstream and thus not necessarily all that representative of "Hollywood". So who knows, the ratio of pro- and anti-Christian characterizations may be more or less the same among non-mainstream films as it is among mainstream films.
mrmando
QUOTE (Peter T Chattaway @ Jan 20 2008, 05:37 PM) *
So who knows, the ratio of pro- and anti-Christian characterizations may be more or less the same among non-mainstream films as it is among mainstream films.

Perhaps the mean is the same, but the extremes are greater? E.g., Magdalene Sisters vs. Into Great Silence?

I dunno ... some of the rather-tepid nods to Christianity in SDG's list pale against stuff like License to Wed and The Da Vinci Code. I"m guessing if you stacked up all depictions of Christianity in all Hollywood films since 2000, they'd run 2-1 or 3-1 negative.
SDG
QUOTE (Greg Wright @ Jan 20 2008, 01:51 PM) *
the pressure to make a movie that will sell broadly is directly proportional to its budget. Hence, the more likely we are to classify a film as a "Hollywood" film (because of the way it was financed and produced), the more likely it is to have potentially offensive religious and political elements stripped out. Deliberately, with a great deal of anguish along the way on everyone's parts about something as simple as rosary beads in a character's hand.

Maybe. But offhand I can think of exactly two 2007 Hollywood films with rosary beads in a character's hand -- and FWIW, both characters are thoroughly unsympathetic, one profoundly hypocritical and worse, the other self-righteous, judgmental and racist.

Was there a "great deal of anguish" over the "potentially offensive" effect on religious viewers? Maybe. But whatever soul-searching went on and however it played out, unsympathetic characters got the rosary beads and sympathetic characters (so far as I remember) didn't.

Sure, there's an impetus to strip out "potentially offensive" religious elements. But whose standard of "offensive" is applicable? I don't doubt that people in the film industry have some ideas about what they think would offend someone like me, and at times efforts are made to suppress something they think fits that category. But they also know that what offends me will appeal to someone else, often in part precisely because it offends someoner like me -- and vice versa. And the filmmakers also have their own perspective on all this -- and their ideas about what they think would or wouldn't offend someone like me are inevitably skewed by their own perceptions and (mis)understandings of religion.

This thesis is not all that wire-drawn or controversial. Douglas LeBlanc and Terry Mattingly (among others) maintain an entire blog dedicated to the proposition that "The press... just doesn't Get Religion." And if you read the blog regularly, you find that "not getting" often translates into ignoring, misrepresenting, selectively -- and pejoratively -- reporting, and sometimes outright smearing.

I don't think the GetReligionistas are conspiracy theorists or have persecution complexes. Nor do I think that the comparable claim regarding the studio film industry is beyond the pale.

QUOTE
That studios are in competition with one another. This, by definition, reduces the likelihood that "Hollywood" will exhibit an antagonistic trend toward a particular demographic.

I think there are way too many other factors for this to count for much.

QUOTE
(I do think it's fair to say, btw, that under Bob Shaye New Line most has most often exhibited characters that negatively portray Christianity.)

I bow to your superior knowledge, and not just because you happen to be throwing a bone to my thesis. If you want to claim knowledge of a particular studio head whom you believe has not exhibited hostlity to Christianity, I won't contest such specific claims. Though if you extend it to "all studio heads but Bob Shaye," I will demur at the general conclusion without challenging any specific claim.

QUOTE
That the movies Hollywood insiders get most self-congratulatory about are NOT those that "sell" the best.

Actually, this was sort of implied in my argument, and I think it supports my case. I do, however, acknowledge the force of your countervailing point that "the rest of the country knows full well that if Hollywood only churned out the kind of films that win Oscars, the studios would go bankrupt. And the studios know that, too."

That said, I think the ideal Hollywood film (from the Hollywood insider's point of view) is one that successfully sells a particular worldview or outlook to mainstream audiences -- not necessarily an awards winner, but a mainstream film that somehow finds ways of mainstreaming values that are not themselves yet entirely mainstream.

From the POV I'm trying to describe, In the Valley of Elah is perhaps an Important film, while National Treasure is a Successful one -- but Million Dollar Baby is BOTH. What's better than that?

QUOTE (Peter T Chattaway @ Jan 20 2008, 10:37 PM) *
Perhaps, but it is my vague and hazy impression that non-mainstream filmmaking allows for more explicit expressions of ANTI-Christianity, too. I remember watching the Michael Medved video Hollywood Vs. Religion in the mid-1990s and thinking that many of the anti-religious examples he cited were non-mainstream and thus not necessarily all that representative of "Hollywood". So who knows, the ratio of pro- and anti-Christian characterizations may be more or less the same among non-mainstream films as it is among mainstream films.

Excellent point.

QUOTE (mrmando @ Jan 20 2008, 11:06 PM) *
I dunno ... some of the rather-tepid nods to Christianity in SDG's list pale against stuff like License to Wed and The Da Vinci Code. I"m guessing if you stacked up all depictions of Christianity in all Hollywood films since 2000, they'd run 2-1 or 3-1 negative.

Another excellent point -- and FWIW not one that seems to me contrary to Peter's original point.

I did include some pretty tepid examples of "positive Christian" elements in my original list (Aunt May praying the Our Father, the back story of the nuns and St. Rita in The Rookie, etc.). It's much easier to come up with provocative and in-your-face examples of anti-religious characterizations than equally striking inspiring examples of positive religious characterizations.
Greg Wright
QUOTE (SDG @ Jan 21 2008, 01:20 PM) *
Maybe. But offhand I can think of exactly two 2007 Hollywood films with rosary beads in a character's hand

I can think of one of those two; and the film is pretty much ABOUT anti-religiosity and, indirectly, anti-Catholicism. (It's hard to make a movie about water and strip water out of the script.) And it tanked, relatively speaking. Certainly, in some cases, the filmmakers see those things as integral to the story/meaning and refuse to strip them out. But that doesn't deny that the pressure to strip them out exists. Movie rags are fulls of stories about directors complaining about the ways in which the studio demanded that things be watered down (and Golden Compass was one of those). These are simply facts.

QUOTE
whatever soul-searching went on and however it played out, unsympathetic characters got the rosary beads and sympathetic characters (so far as I remember) didn't.

Specifically in the case of The Golden Compass, could've been a hell of a lot worse, couldn't it? Evidence makes it clear that a ton of market force was brought to bear on that project.

QUOTE
whose standard of "offensive" is applicable?

In the case of GC, Bob Shaye's. And that's why it still managed to be offensive; he's the guy who directed The Last Mimzy and thought that was wholesome children's entertainment.

QUOTE
they also know that what offends me will appeal to someone else, often in part precisely because it offends someoner like me -- and vice versa. And the filmmakers also have their own perspective on all this

No doubt. And that's where studio competition and niche marketing start to come into play.

QUOTE
This thesis is not all that wire-drawn or controversial.

Nope. But that doesn't mean I buy its conclusions about the motivation for the symptoms observed; and I'm not arguing about symptoms, I'm debating motivations. And I also don't think the thesis is easily extrapolatable to the film industry, which is rather less homogeneous than the news media.

QUOTE
I think there are way too many other factors for this to count for much.

Feel free to differ, please.

QUOTE
Actually, this was sort of implied in my argument, and I think it supports my case.

Yes -- which is only half of the full case, as I see it.

Let's take the opposite side: Would the studio system go bankrupt if ideology were no longer part of the decision-making process, and all was left to purely good business thinking? No; quite the opposite. And the industry itself knows this, and the bean-counters fight constantly against the auteurs and the ideologues for control of the decision-making process. Studios always tank with ideologues and auteurs at the helm; they tank far less frequently with good business minds guiding the ship.

So the notion that non-business agendas drive Hollywood, as an industry, simply does not wash with me, given that we all agree that "if Hollywood only churned out the kind of films that win Oscars, the studios would go bankrupt." What's the other option? That mass market movies are mere concessions to finance the movies they really want to make? That may be true for Scorsese (and was, in at least one case); but it sure ain't true for, say, Universal Pictures as a whole. Shareholders wouldn't stand for it. These are publicly-held companies.

QUOTE
I think the ideal Hollywood film... is perhaps an Important film [and] a Successful one [like] Million Dollar Baby is BOTH. What's better than that?

No argument from me there. But MDB isn't anti-Christian, either. The priest doesn't supply the answers, but he's not a good or a pederast, either.

I don't think I can offer any more to this discussion. I simply think that Christians, who are by and large "of the world but not in the world," often fail to interpret the world from the world's point of view -- and one of those Big Points of View is the business perspective. What's good for business may be bad for Christians -- but not because the business world hates Christianity; rather, because the business world loves something else better. And you can't serve two masters.

Remember the constant refrain from At World's End... "It's just good business." There's your Hollywood metaphor for the tension between artistic and business concerns.
Peter T Chattaway
Libertas has now linked to Catholic Media Review's link to Jeffrey's link to SDG's list. (I hate it when bloggers say "they", referring to the site they're linking to, when all the site in question did was copy-and-paste someone else's words.)
Overstreet
bang.gif

I've added a clarification to the post. I've seen others linking to it as if I wrote the list as well. And very few seem interested in thinking of titles released since "the turn of the millennium."
Ron Reed
QUOTE (SDG @ Jan 19 2008, 02:11 PM) *
Rev: Most of the items in your list don't fit the description. Either they're non-Hollywood, pre-2000, or both. (And at least one of your films, Lars and the Real Girl, was on my original list.)

Some items on your list seem pretty dubious. Bruce Almighty is generically pro-God, but there's nothing "Christian" about it. And while it may be possible to make a case for the positive spiritual implications of films like Magnolia and Chocolat (and I would certainly dissent on the latter, at least), I don't think it's plausible to argue that either depicts Christianity itself or Christians in a positive light.


Not plausible to argue that MAGNOLIA depicts Christians in a positive light? Perhaps not to you, but more than plausible to me. Jim Kurring may be less than stellar in his police work, and naive about Claudia's addiction, but his heart, integrity and compassion (and Brother Lawrence-ish practice of the presence of God) are most inspiring to me. A just plain decent man, and clearly a Christian.
MattPage
ditto Ron.

Matt
Alan Thomas
+1
SDG
I withdraw the comment. Whatever hazy memories and/or impressions of Magnolia (which I haven't seen since its release) I was relying on are insufficient for the question at hand.
David Smedberg
Another movie that belongs on the list is The Great Debaters.
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