ADMIN: THIS TOPIC WAS MOVED HERE FROM THE TOP100 AREA

This is one of the key ones on the list that I feel strongly about.

This needs to be seen as wisdom literature. It compares to Job, Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, James. It's focus is what is a proper life. I can think of very few films that work well as wisdom lit. This is the best example of it I know.

I can see that 13 Conversations offers a lot of simple morality tales, but I gotta be honest here: the film felt flat to me. I didn't find any of the stories compelling, nor any of the performances particularly engaging. There were a few flourishes of cinematography that were nice, but overall, it felt undercooked. Magnolia, on the other hand, took on just as ambitious a tapestry of stories, and the characters were alive, convincing, compelling, and the stories were sewn together in a masterful fusion of overlapping conversations, images, musical elements, and virtuosic cinematography

I disagree, Jeffrey. After I voted, I saw enough of a fragment of Conversations (it is in rotation on the Cinemax collection of channels right now) that I had wished I had been able to vote for it. I think it more "accessible" than Magnolia and just as subtle. There are lives demonstrating "the good life" as Socrates might have seen it, for example. Also, the envy and bitterness this arouses in those better off, but more dissatisfied with their surroundings. Magnolia takes a lot of work to stay with for the casual film goer. Almost no one is a person one can identify with. The storylines can go off into the esoteric, or the personal-experience-of-the-filmmakers-alone sort of thing at any time. Conversations uses everyday characters that most all have sat alongside, worked with, seen on the street, or use to know in the old neighborhood.

Ron: too late to vote on this last round, but think of it as another (YY). :wink:

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I disagree, Jeffrey. After I voted, I saw enough of a fragment of Conversations (it is in rotation on the Cinemax collection of channels right now) that I had wished I had been able to vote for it. ... Ron: too late to vote on this last round, but think of it as another (YY). :wink:

Oh, it's certainly NOT too late to vote! We've only had the preliminary round. We're just now getting into the meat and potatoes of it: check out Step Four in the Selection Process.

Yes, I understand. I meant that I wish I could have augmented this film's position going into the next stage.

Rich Kennedy wrote:
: I think it more "accessible" than Magnolia and just as subtle.

Magnolia was "subtle"?

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Rich Kennedy wrote: : I think it more \"accessible\" than Magnolia and just as subtle. Magnolia was \"subtle\"?

I agree with PTC. Magnolia was as subtle as a ton of bricks. Or a ton of frogs, if you prefer.

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QUOTE Rich Kennedy wrote: : I think it more \"accessible\" than Magnolia and just as subtle. Magnolia was \"subtle\"? I agree with PTC. Magnolia was as subtle as a ton of bricks. Or a ton of frogs, if you prefer.

Not everything is frogs in Magnolia, what spiritual import there is in the film is slipped in under the bombast. Macy's moment of confession in the gay bar, Phillip Seymour Hoffman's desperation on the phone, the scenes between the cop and the daughter. What we are looking for in films on this list is worked more subtly in Magnolia, despite some of the over the top plotlines

I found MAGNOLIA more gripping, utterly absorbing in fact. It's a favourite.

Re-watched 13 CONVERSATIONS tonight, having read this thread. Totally agree with Darrel on this one: it'll definitely be getting some of my votes. You're so right about the wisdom literature aspect. At one point, as Gene intentionally decides to wipe the smile of Bowman's face, and makes a bet with the co-worker, I suddenly saw resonances with the Job story: within seconds, one of the characters quotes "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away..." These girls had been reading their Bibles, I think.

This stands as an example of a movie that engages with philosophical questions which is also clearly spiritual, I would say. But that's another thread. I'm usually very uninterested in the whole free will vs determinism question, fate vs chance, etc, but this film really succeeded in engaging me with those questions. Who would I be if things worked out differently? How much do our choices matter?

Love the leitmotifs. Blood on paper, blood on cloth. Things falling. The significance of smiles, "Put on a happy face." The many kinds of lies, deceptions, half-truths, secrets. Winning, losing, good and bad luck. Are miracles still miracles when there's a human explanation?

Several nice character reversals, plot surprises, misdirections.

I kept track of the titles, but only end up counting 12. I had guessed there would be one for each "conversation", so I'm assuming I missed one. Anybody got the DVD? Do the chapter headings correspond to the titles? Am I missing one?

Show me a happy man.
You look so serious.
Ignorance is bliss.
I once knew a happy man. His happiness was a curse.
F*** guilt.
Ask yourself if you're happy.
Fortune smiles at some and laughs at others.
Wisdom comes suddenly.
I can never go back.
The mind is its own place.
I'm ready to surrender.
Eighteen inches of personal space.

Interesting how the phrase which introduces a new section isn't usually used in that section, but is drawn from a different section, often a different story line.

The structure certainly draws out the "order and sort" instinct in me: I'm sure tempted to work out the chronology of the scenes, draw up a character map to get hold of the inter-connections, think through the cause-and-effect relationships between various characters' choices and the consequences in the lives of others.

And what to make of that final scene, Gene and Patricia on the subway? A conversation without words. Wonder what it signifies?

Nifty to see a film for the second time and really feel like I need to see it again to really start getting a handle on it.

I bet the Sprecher sisters are fans of DEKALOG.

Yup, I'll be voting for this one. Thanks for bringing it up, Darrel.

*

By the way, I think Ebert gets it completely wrong.

I could have hit my head and been killed. Or landed better and not been injured. At best, what we can hope for is a daily reprieve from all of the things that can go wrong. "13 Conversations About One Thing" is relentless in the way it demonstrates how little we control our lives. ...

I'd have to go into serious SPOILER territory to say why, but... Suffice it to say, I think the movie entertains the possibility that things are that bleak and random, but ultimately is far more optimistic. Seems to me it ultimately comes down on the side of "our actions and choices lead to consequences, and we can choose to change." Or was I watching it with my Pollyanna glasses on?

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I can see that 13 Conversations offers a lot of simple morality tales, but I gotta be honest here: the film felt flat to me. I didn't find any of the stories compelling, nor any of the performances particularly engaging. There were a few flourishes of cinematography that were nice, but overall, it felt undercooked. Magnolia, on the other hand, took on just as ambitious a tapestry of stories, and the characters were alive, convincing, compelling, and the stories were sewn together in a masterful fusion of overlapping conversations, images, musical elements, and virtuosic cinematography

Somewhat agreed. I liked the film quite a bit on successive viewings though. It does hang together very well thematically and visually. I would argue that this was certainly one of the most intriguing American films of that year from a "spiritual" perspective and it is much more representative of good filmmaking than something like "Gladiator" or some of the other options we have to vote for.

As to the Wisdom lit angle, darn if that isn't the category that one might use for just about anything not overtly doctrinal that we see on screen. I am tempted to say that we are not saying anything special about this film by labeling it so. This is not meant to sleight Darrell or the film.

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This stands as an example of a movie that engages with philosophical questions which is also clearly spiritual, I would say.  But that's another thread.  I'm usually very uninterested in the whole free will vs determinism question, fate vs chance, etc, but this film really succeeded in engaging me with those questions.  Who would I be if things worked out differently?  How much do our choices matter?

I must see this film credit to credit, because, yes, I agree. I think that Gene at some point wonders if his choices might have changed things or not. Bowman clearly is trying to make the best of and redeem the options that he has, though I haven't seen his whole arc yet (no spoilers on Bowman please).

This film, while ambitious, felt flat to me too Jeff. Like a student film it tried too hard to be important and failed to be interesting. I liked M.M. more than I usually do, and was reminded of how brilliant Arkin is, but for my money, it felt like an ethics lesson, taught by the T.A.

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At one point, as Gene intentionally decides to wipe the smile of Bowman's face, and makes a bet with the co-worker, I suddenly saw resonances with the Job story: within seconds, one of the characters quotes \"The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away...\"  These girls had been reading their Bibles, I think.

My Review also centered in my identifying the Job story. Interestingly, one of the posts in the forum saw it more in terms of Ecclesiastes, which I also think is apt.

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I kept track of the titles, but only end up counting 12.  I had guessed there would be one for each \"conversation\", so I'm assuming I missed one.  Anybody got the DVD?  Do the chapter headings correspond to the titles?  Am I missing one? Show me a happy man. You look so serious. Ignorance is bliss. I once knew a happy man.  His happiness was a curse. F*** guilt. Ask yourself if you're happy. Fortune smiles at some and laughs at others. Wisdom comes suddenly. I can never go back. The mind is its own place. I'm ready to surrender. Eighteen inches of personal space. <clip>   And what to make of that final scene, Gene and Patricia on the subway?  A conversation without words.  Wonder what it signifies?

Those are all the title cards - only 12. It could be that the wordless conversation is one, or that the overall converstation, I like the wordless option better.

I have moved this thread to here from the Top100 area (as there didn't seem to be a pre-existing 13 Conversations topic).

I just had the privilige of seeing this one this evening (morning?). It's interesting to read through all the posts here with all the connections already made with Magnolia. I really disagree with the treatment of this film as a lesser version of Magnolia. Magnolia was way to esoteric and bizarre for me to really connect with. I could appreciate the performances and cinematography and the narrative, but the whole thing was just so over-the-top that it felt like it was trying too hard. I remember with Magnolia I would always get impatient with particular vingettes and want to go back to the story of the cop and the hooker (the narrative strand that was, by far, most compelling to me). I never had that feeling with 13 Conversations. I admire that 13 Conversations didn't resort to presenting its case through extremes as Magnolia did, but each of the characters was just a normal person.

And what a number of great issues/questions the movie raises:

Providence - do things always work of for the best? For whom do they do work out? I loved the quiet, in-line event of Beatrice (the house-cleaner) re-gaining her faith in providence. It's not even shown, but rather relegated to narration through her conversation with her friend. I less subtle film would make a big soaring teary scene out of it, but I appreciated the realism of this approach.

Joy - the "conversations" are all about happiness and its relationship to joy. The "double gypsy curse", "may you get what you want and want what you get." Is the key to happiness knowing what you want? That seemed to be Turturro's Professer character's problem, but then again, the boss knew exactly what he wanted and that didn't do him much good in making him happy.... So is it to want the right things? I think that may be more in line with what the film is saying.

Ahh.... A very refreshing and satifying viewing, and I owe it to the A&F Top 100 to give me the heads up.

Having failed to know about this film until last year, I've finally got around to writing one it on CultureWatch.

At the risk of being seen as ultra-contrarian... I've seen this twice and can't tell you how disappointing i found it. it struck me as being a very "New York" movie of a certain kind - concerned with suffering and symbolism in a fairly superficial way. To me, it seemed deeply despairing and negative - and a little too trendy, maybe, with the [spoiler]cutting[/spoiler]. The characters seemed awfully flat to me, and the only sign of life (something other than an overly intense focus on despair) was the Latino cleaning lady. She was the only character who seemed to get some enjoyment from life.

I think this film is far too serious about itself to have much resonance (for me, at least), and that's a shame - it could have been so much better! As is, it seems too clever by half (contrived, et. al.).

but the cinematography was beautiful, and Alan Arkin was (as always) top-notch.

A quote from A.O. Scott's review:



he's hit the nail on the head, though I disagree with him about the final effect of the film. I just couldn't get beyond the contrivances and despair.

Edit: One of the things that really turned me off - the titles. ("Show me a happy man," etc.) That seems, as Dan Buck said, to be film-school territory. I'm saying this from the perspective of having been a studio arts major back in the day - and having taken myself far too seriously in many ways when I was there. (Also true of my colleagues, for the most part.)