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Clint M
Stars line up to save cinema from evangelicals' wholesome movies

QUOTE
Joseph Fiennes, one of Britain's most bankable Hollywood stars, has launched a broadside at evangelical Christians who have taken over his local cinema.

Fiennes, who has played Christ on stage, heads a galaxy of famous residents, promising to save the Coronet in fashionable Notting Hill, west London. Mariella Frostrup, former X-Files actress Gillian Anderson, and film-maker Bernardo Bertolucci have signed up to the campaign.

A radical evangelical church, the Elim Pentecostal, purchased the Coronet cinema last month for £3m and is now planning to show "wholesome films for family viewing". It will also be used as a theatre and a place of worship. Alongside the Hollywood blockbuster Troy and the latest disaster movie The Day After Tomorrow, the new Coronet's first programme will include The Passion of the Christ and Man Dancing, a modern-day take on the story of Christ that was panned by the critics.

But its celebrity audience fears the cinema could eventually stop showing films for good. The church's website declares its aim is "to redeem the arts through Christian discipleship", a statement dismissed by Fiennes as "ridiculous".

"It's not what the arts are about," he said. "To redeem the arts through films like The Passion of the Christ smacks of fundamentalism and with the current world political position we don't need that."


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stef
Man. People just love using the "F" word, whenever they want to strike a nerve.

-s.
Thom(asher)
It is truly pathetic what these stars petition against. Morality can be brought to anything and Christian artistry has its place, even if it is from a "F"undamentalist perspective.

Redeeming the arts through Christian discipleship is an excellent notion that I think the church will have a more difficult time coming together on that Mr. Fiennes truly doesn't have much to bark about.
Alan Thomas
I certainly wouldn't call that a "radical evangelical church" -- "rad," maybe, but extreme, hardly.

In fact, it sounds like a fairly interesting approach.
Thom(asher)
It is odd that most people involved in the arts point their fingers at the church and accuse us of being closed minded and then turn around and say we do not belong when the church begins to take an active part.

I do not think our morality is infantile. What I think the problem is is that they will find out that their idea of morality is infantile.
Alan Thomas
Um, all of our ideas of morality are infantile, that's why we need to grow up into Christ...
MattPage
Has anyone seen Man Dancin' btw?

I'm surprised at all the fuss at this. Britain is full of Cinemas that have been taken over by someone or other, and churches are a fairly popular group fo doing so. In fact I was best man at a wedding in one.

Also I would have thought that the cinema would have had to pack it in before it was for sale anyway. Surely the cinema was due to beclosed / sold anyway? At least this way it will still be showing films rather than becomming a carpet warehouse or just a church building.

I quite like what the church has done here, although "redeem" the arts isn't perhaps the best phrase to use. I guess in some senses as well they could be criticised for showing two films that are overtly Christian when there isn't that much demand for them. But that's really just a quibble. It sounds like it could be a great idea, tho a lot depends on how they excute it I guess

Matt
Crow
Isn't it ironic that Joseph Fiennes played the title character in the movie Luther, which would be one of the kind of movies these people would be protesting?
Thom(asher)
QUOTE (Alan @ May 11 2004, 01:19 PM)
Um, all of our ideas of morality are infantile, that's why we need to grow up into Christ...

I suppose I should have said our "standard" of morality in not infantile.
mrmando
For a minute I thought we were talking about the Coronet Pub, which used to be a cinema. But it appears to be a separate entity from the cinema in question.

The perception that talking about redemption makes you a "fundamentalist" is part of the problem, as is the perception that only fundamentalists would be interested in artistic expression of religious values.

Will someone please notify Ted Baehr? This might be enough to get him off CT's case and into a celebrity death match with Joseph Fiennes.

SDG
QUOTE
Will someone please notify Ted Baehr? This might be enough to get him off CT's case and into a celebrity death match with Joseph Fiennes.

laugh.gif
Alan Thomas
You mean Ted has his uses? wink.gif
Nezpop
I'm still waiting for proof that evangelicals and Fundamentalists have ever managed to "redeem" any kind of art. smile.gif
Alvy
The church is Kensington Temple, a London megachurch affiliated with the Elim Pentecostal Church, within which I spent most of my teenage years and did my Bible College training.

Post-Toronto revivalism, "apostles and prophets," faith healing (in the vein of Benny Hinn and Morris Cerullo, at least the latter of which has an ongoing association with the church), intense, charismatic-style "spiritual warfare" -- in terms of Pentecostalism and fundamentalism, I wouldn't call KT "radical" so much as "extreme".
Alan Thomas
QUOTE (Nezpop @ May 11 2004, 03:54 PM)
I'm still waiting for proof that evangelicals and Fundamentalists have ever managed to "redeem" any kind of art.  smile.gif

It depends on (1) what you mean by evangelicals/fundamentalists and (2) what you mean by ""redeem"".

"Art" (with a capital "A") is a relatively new development in human history, in any case. I doubt many artists/artisans before Bach would have understood the expressionistic cowl now drawn about the face of art. To quote Andre Gide, "Art is a collaboration between God and the artist, and the less the artist does the better," or Paul Klee: "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."

In the strickest sense, I'm not sure art can be redeemed at all, in any way. I see redemption as being necessarily linked to right relationships--as with almost all things related to the Gospel, right relationship with God and right relationship with one another. (Jesus never said the world would know his disciples by their art.) The idea of redeeming art implies that art, by itself, can have a relationship to someone. That's a pagan/animist idea, really. It might apply to gardening or animal husbandry, but not dead hunks of wood, fabric, metal, or plastic.

But, even if one accepts a work of art as being something inhabited by its (sub)creator in some fashion, I'm still not sure redemption has anything to do with it. Understanding, yes. But redemption implies transformation...

More often the case, as with the blind leading the blind, "redeemed art" (both in quotes) can end up in a sanctimonius pit worse than where it started.

Christians should be more focused on the redemption of their neighbors than the redemption of Hollywood studios.
Nezpop
I've found that when the "message" of the "art" is the top priority of the "artist", it usually results in crap. That isn't unique to Christians, either, it's true of anyone who makes their art a mere tool for their message.

Think of all the annoying preachy movies that come out of Hollywood.
mrmando
QUOTE (Alan @ May 11 2004, 04:19 PM)
The idea of redeeming art implies that art, by itself, can have a relationship to someone. That's a pagan/animist idea, really. It might apply to gardening or animal husbandry, but not dead hunks of wood, fabric, metal, or plastic.

But, even if one accepts a work of art as being something inhabited by its (sub)creator in some fashion, I'm still not sure redemption has anything to do with it. Understanding, yes. But redemption implies transformation...

More often the case, as with the blind leading the blind, "redeemed art" (both in quotes) can end up in a sanctimonius pit worse than where it started.

Yes -- Harold Best would say that to confuse the art with the artist amounts to idolatry. If you redeem the artists, the art should take care of itself.

I am not filled with hope after learning what sort of church it is and taking a quick look at their Web site, with its three different ways to spell the word "opportunity." This sort of thing could be great if it's done right -- but there are so many more ways to do it wrong.
Alan Thomas
I saw Dr. Best speak at Cornerstone a decade ago--it was a wonderful, life-changing session.

I wonder how many times Christians use the word "redemption" when they mean "dominion," as in Christians dominating the arts. That seems to be the intent much of the time. "We're gonna glorify the Lord 'cause OUR GUYS are making the blockbuster/tv-appearance/best-seller/chart-topper/you-name-it now..." As if us being "right" somehow contributed to the glory of the Lord.
Alvy
In my opinion, Kensington Temple encourage exactly that kind of thinking. They belong very much to the dominionistic, triumphalistic stream of the charismatic movement, i.e. of the sort where apostles and prophets regularly predict an Endtimes revival during which Christians will literally take control of the world, becoming "the head and not the tail," and dominating culture and the economy. "Binding" spirits and "taking authority over" people, places, nations and their institutions, are all part of their theological programme.

My guess is that their version of "redeeming the arts" will look much like Ted Baehr's, with a heavy dose of spiritual warfare thrown in.
Alan Thomas
QUOTE (Alvy @ May 11 2004, 05:18 PM)
...prophets regularly predict an Endtimes revival during which Christians will literally take control of the world, becoming "the head and not the tail," and dominating culture and the economy. "Binding" spirits and "taking authority over" people, places, nations and their institutions, are all part of their theological programme.

I thought that was a description of the anti-Christ...or have I watched too many Omen movies? (Rev 13:3 -- "the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.")
Rich Kennedy
I dunno. I'm not exactly impressed with the group in question, from Alvy's posts, but they seem willing to try films other than just gospel accounts and glorified filmed salvation tracts. I'd like to know how Troy will hepl redeem the arts though. That one will probably help pay the bills, which is not a bad idea, let alone a fresh one for this sort of believer. Nice to know they might be considering more than faith and declaration for financing.
Peter T Chattaway
Rich Kennedy wrote:
: I'd like to know how Troy will hepl redeem the arts though.

Yes, I was just about to ask that myself ... that ancient pagan tale of adultery and revenge seems an odd movie to put on a list of "wholesome" films being shown by a church ...
SZPT
Ugh. I grew up in a church like the one described. They probably feel comfortable showing Troy because they choose not to understand Biblical teaching, hence they have no core beliefs. They've got things all upside down, and are like "children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine."

At least that was my experience with it. Maybe I'm being harsh. unsure.gif
kebbie
i think i'm most frustrated by the fact that, once again, "christian" movies are seen as synonymous with "family-friendly" movies. certainly there's a place for films that are appropriate for children, but why-oh-why do some christians seem to think that if it's not suitable for their five-year-old, they shouldn't watch it either?!?! i have no idea if that's what the one guy meant by calling evangelicals "morally infantile," but that's certainly my assessment of the way many in our body interact with film.

actually, i doubt fiennes and others would be throwing such a fit if a group of christians bought the cinema and endeavored to show artful, innovative movies that explored "morally complex" issues in a way that honored the historicity of the theatre. attempting to baptize a formerly "secular" building with God-friendly films(tongue firmly in cheek) is what is so offensive here, at least to me. and i'm a christian.

to believe that you, a human, can "redeem" art to begin with is ridiculous. to believe you can do so by showing innocuous, all-ages movies and filling the vaulted theatre with worship music is entirely misdirected. in my opinion.

arrrrrgh.
kebbie
QUOTE (Peter T Chattaway @ May 11 2004, 10:40 PM)
Rich Kennedy wrote:
: I'd like to know how Troy will hepl redeem the arts though.

Yes, I was just about to ask that myself ... that ancient pagan tale of adultery and revenge seems an odd movie to put on a list of "wholesome" films being shown by a church ...

this is actually not surprising to me. for some reason, many evangelicals seem to put these quasi-historical films (braveheart being the main one) in the category of "family-friendly." at least that's the attitude i encountered growing up in an evangelical setting: those movies were acceptable because they portrayed noble men and didn't try to pull any sketchy "liberal" revisionist history (such as taking up the cause of the underdogs who overcame without using violence).

also, modern evangelicals seem to have fewer issues with violence in film than with other objectionable behavior. this is true in general, but it's particularly acceptable when it's "redemptive" violence--i.e., when it helps the good-guy protagonists win the day and defeat the evil "other." i suppose, in sense, it reaffirms the evangelical sense of good and evil being utterly separate, utterly discernable--utterly black and white. the morals in these types of films are usually clear cut and the ultimate goal is virtue. i am not so sure this is the way christians are called to see the world--being there's good and evil bound up in each individual--but at least for me, it explains why a church like this would show a film like "troy."
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