The subject of homosexuality has come up in these forums numerous times, within the context of theological and political discussions, but I don't know how often we've discussed the possibility of transition out of the gay lifestyle.

A new film opens the door to such discussions, if anyone's interested.

I've always found this controversy fascinating, although at times I've been overwhelmingly depressed at the polarized dialogue about this issue. The gay lobby and religious right both have so much to lose by ceding any ground in their respective arguments that the stories of the individuals who have gone through this process often get obscured. Some go through it and fail; this film highlights some of the success stories. What the future holds for these folks, only God knows.

Well I think I missed all the previous discussions, so I'll say my piece here.

In college a speaker I once heard was a man who currently runs a Christian ministry to homosexuals. Currently I can't remember the name of the man or the ministry, but I wish I could. As a young man he had feelings of attraction for other men and dabbled in homosexuality, but decided that as a Christian he could not act on them and would be celebate from that point on, even if it meant for the rest of his life. When he, some twenty years later, ended up in a romantic relationship with a woman, it caught him completely by surprise. In his own words,"I was astonished."

Some of the stuff I've read about "ex-gay" therapy groups, even in the last 30 minutes, is quite simply ridiculous, and I think they miss the point. Sexual preference is a complex psychological issue, not just a switch that can be turned on or off. Some people struggle with it for their whole lives, and this isn't something that just goes away when some group leader starts teaching you to act more masculine or feminine.

Really, the ideal process has two steps, and two steps alone. Conviction of sin, and cessation of sin. It's God's job to convict a person of sin, not the Christian's. Similarly, it's the individual's responsibility to cease sinning. The process ends up being like the one the man I mentioned went through. Adoption of heterosexuality shouldn't be the goal for these ministries... cessation of homosexual behavior should. If a heterosexual attraction develops later in life, that is great, but it's not something that can or should be forced. If I care about a man who is caught up in homosexuality, I'm not going to try to hook him up with a woman... I'm going to be there for him when he talks about temptation, and offer prayer and support.

theoddone33, we have threads that deal with the theological and political aspects of this subject already -- I think this thread should be reserved, as much as possible, for discussion of the FILM.

And with that, I'll just mention, in response to Christian's post, that I agree with both Campolos when they say that we should try to avoid jargon like "the gay lifestyle". There is more than one gay lifestyle, just as there is more than one het lifestyle.

I was going to add this to another thread but it is closed, so I will add it here.

I received my undergrad degree in psychology in 1973 and started seminary that year. It was in that same year, 1973, that the APA changed the DSMII and removed homosexuality as a disorder. Trained before this change, it was clear that up until 1973 a great deal of clinical experience had been collected to understand both the way persons became homosexual and interventions to help those who chose to address this sexual distortion and seek to change.

In a classic article summarizedhere, Dr. Irving Beiber was a part of that historic debate and represented what became the losing side of the argument. But it is clear that the decision was not based only on science or even clinical experience, but a shift in the society and the field of psychology itself based on activist pressure.

The summary of the summary of the article says:



As a pastoral counselor who has worked with several seeking change over these decades, my experience would be similar to the statistics that were common before the 1973 change, that is about 1 in 4 (27%) are able to make a significant shift. I would not describe these persons as “cured” but rather having made a significant, sustained change. Like all counseling, and especially when working with true disorders, there are few who become “cured” but rather make significant change.

Denny

Could you describe the before and after scenerio of one of your significantly sustained changed individuals?

What do you mean by significantly changed?

How do you measure or observe change?

Quoting ThePersistanceofWaffles, from the other thread:


That does indeed seem to be what the article suggests. Whether that's actually the message of the film, or whether the article is just trying to spin the film to make its own points, I couldn't say until I had seen the film. I am suspicious of any article that quotes Ted Baehr.


I never said it was the best way, nor did I intend to imply parity. I had no numbers in front of me, so thanks for supplying the ones you did.


Fair enough.


I'm willing to bet most people reading this will have a more nuanced view of the subject.

I try not to have an entire outlook towards gay people, just as, indeed, I try not to have an entire outlook toward African-Americans, Muslims, Catholics, movie critics, or any class of people considered as a group. I have to go with what I know. So, speaking of anecdotal evidence, I have a good friend A at church who's a former lesbian. I also have a good friend B from college who is now a pastor of a gay church in Colorado. One camp wants me to think A is kidding herself and the other wants me to think B is deluded. I want to think God's grace is sufficient for both of my friends.

Sufficient for what?

Link to the other, now-closed thread.

Run,

Here is one set of criteria that is about as good as I've seen.





One of the problems we have with all of the disorders is that no one can really say anyone is "cured." For example, with bipolar disorder,





This is in fact what is true in much of life, not only in psychological disorders or sexual issues or temptations (including the desire for adultery or envy) is that we are empowered by God and encouraged by therapy to make behavior choices which enhance our lives and honor our Creator, our family, our community and ourselves.

Denny