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Fiction for Men

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So now I'm wondering how they'd define "non-literary fiction"? ;)

Any and all of the Longarm book series, perhaps? :-)

This has been a very interesting thread, folks. It took me a few days to dig through all of this, but I waded through!

I worked in a bookstore for four years. It was in a very blue-collar suburb on the outskirts of Pittsburgh (I mention this just to give you a good idea of what the demographics are: predominantly white, very eastern European / Italian / Catholic, lots of non-office / non-academia jobs). I make no generalizations and stereotypes, but here are a few things I observed:

-Out of the employees, of the store over that four-year period, around 15%, including myself, were men.

-We had a surprisingly (and wonderfully) diverse crowd come through occasionally. I would guess and say that maybe 40% of our customers were men. (As for children, it was about 50 / 50 gender-wise).

-Out of those 40% men, maybe a quarter (what, 10% of overall customers?) admitted to buying books as a gift. Women would admit this too, but rarely.

-Men predominantly bought: 'adult' westerns; history; biography; bestselling thrillers (Scott Turow, "Mean Jim" Patterson, etc.); magazines. Actually, maybe HALF of the men that purchased anything would also purchase a magazine. Usually a sport magazine. (Sports are HUGE around here, moreso than the rest of the planet.)

-Women predominantly bought: 'general' fiction; romance novels; sci-fi / fantasy (yes, few guys bought this); cookbooks; biography; new age; health.

-There were obviously lots of deviations. For instance, there was one older man (Korean war vet) that bought 20+ bodice-ripper novels EACH WEEK. He'd have his grandkids help pick them out. There were also plenty of women that bought books I special-ordered in (Tim O'Brien books, for instance).

-I managed to sell Auralia's Colors to ten people, almost all women. (ha!)

-Middle-age men often (not always) stayed by the door and occasionally looked at sport magazines OR watched kids in the stroller, eyes wandering glazed over.

It's also worth noting that most of our staff went out of our way to talk to the customers, recommend favorite books, and so on. Even though it was a Borders Express, we treated books less like a product and more, well, like books.

That said, out of my group of friends, I'm one of the few guys that reads fiction on a regular basis. And most of my close guy friends are VERY avid readers. One guy studies theology 99% of a year, but sometimes pulls out an Umberto Eco novel. So, to talk about fiction, I usually have to talk to my close gal friends (who are usually married to my guy friends).

Oh, and Andy...I fell in love with reading thanks to my English teacher suggestion Ray Bradbury to me.

And another tangent: Christian, you mentioned Johnson's new book being pulpy yet empty. I've found out that many modern pulpy throwbacks really lack any substance or moral gravity. Some of the pulp writers, even hacks like Mickey Spillane, actually had meat on those bones. As acclaimed as some of the authors are that take stabs at pulp, they usually leave that out.

I don't know what all of this means. I'm basically dumping info out.

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So he *was* indulging in a snappy 1st graph after all... ;)

Yes, but "just trying to get some attention from the guys" isn't the same thing as walking away from the statistical findings in those reports mentioned.

Are guys reading literature? No, not many of them are. Although the ones who are probably can be found at the bookstore, no? I feel like we're going in circles on this point amid mounting anecdotal and survey evidence that supports the underlying thesis about men and reading.

Edited by Christian

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I thought Harris-Stone had addressed those concerns. As for Ron Charles' comments, I don't think he's repudiating the idea that men don't read fiction, but wrote about the findings in an attention-getting manner.

So, anyway, about those other Book Club selections: In addition to all the Dickens and the Ron Carlson novel, we'll be reading a recent Amy Tan book (can't remember the title, but it has the word "Fish" in it, I believe) and another gritty guy's-type story with the words "Whisky River" in the title. Sounded good.

Edited by Christian

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I thought Harris-Stone had addressed those concerns. As for Ron Charles' comments, I don't think he's repudiating the idea that men don't read fiction, but wrote about the findings in an attention-getting manner.

So, anyway, about those other Book Club selections: In addition to all the Dickens and the Ron Carlson novel, we'll be reading a recent Amy Tan book (can't remember the title, but it has the word "Fish" in it, I believe) and another gritty guy's-type story with the words "Whisky River" in the title. Sounded good.

My wife enjoyed Amy Tan's "Saving Fish from Drowning." I didn't get to read it and believe she lent it out to someone. She reads amazingly fast...she can do a 600 page novel in a couple of days, reading just when she gets a chance. I read reasonably quick, but nothing like that! :)

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Great Thread - there are some authors here I'm going to have to try out for the first time. If you're a guy, but are wondering if fictional masculine books exist, here's my list so far -

High Quality Modern Day Masculine Authors for Guys

Dennis Lehane - modern day noir - suspense or mystery stories

James Ellroy - 1940s-1960s hard boiled/historical cop and detective novels

Bernard Cornwall - the Richard Sharpe series

William F. Buckley, Jr. - the Blackford Oakes cold war spy series along with a few other historical works

Christopher Buckley - political satire and comedy (including Thank You For Smoking)

Christopher Moore - think of an American P.G. Wodehouse with more a foul mouth crossed with Tim Burton

Chuck Palahniuk - absolutely hate half his books and threw them in the garbage (Invisible Monsters, Diary, Rant, Snuff, Pygmy), absolutely love half his books (Fight Club, Survivor, Choke, Lullaby)

Max Barry - Syrup, The Company, Jennifer Government - all hilarious, but start with Syrup

Nathan Wilson - Christian satire, read Right Behind for starters

Older Classic Authors For Guys

Patrick O

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ahahaha - that's cool - I'm not making an absolute category where all these authors books have to be called "men's fiction." Neither am I saying that women can't like these books too. Although (a) the fact that women like it too doesn't mean it's not still primarily a "guy's book" - plenty of women like the movies Die Hard and Fight Club, and (B) if the statistics about women reading a ton of more fiction than men are true, then it would make sense that any good well-written novel would have a "female readership", while that same novel could be the ONLY sort of story that most men would read.

Heck, there's a ton of guys who like reading Twilight. So even in men's case, there are some gay exceptions to the rule.

I'm glad some of these guys are your favorite authors because I really love reading them. Basically, this is just a list made by a guy who CAN'T STAND reading any of the fictional romantic/relationship bilge that so many of the girls I know read all the time. I completely admit that I'm very prejudiced by this. If I start reading a book, and the book starts taking too long analyzing a guy or girl's feelings about a romantic relationship, I feel sick and generally always quit wasting my time. Romance is fine, but in moderation. This is also why I can't bring myself to stomach reading most fantasy fiction. They all seem like bodice rippers with orcs and elves - blah! I gave up on and chucked Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series because he'd make you go through 200 page sections at a time, simply devoted to a couple girl characters and their latest romantic crushes on one of the guy characters. That's just horrible writing, but as a heavy reader, I've never been able to bring myself to read even the classic well written literature of Jane Austin or the Bronte Sisters or any of that British teatable stuff - would bore me out of my mind.

In other words, as a self-admittedly very prejudiced male reader, that list is the group of authors whose works of fiction have still captured my imagination - and I've enjoyed reading every one of them. And it's a list I would give to any guy who says he doesn't like reading fiction.

So yeah, um ... no offense intended. I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't like these authors if you were a girl.

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Do men read romance novels? Scott Simon visits the Romance Writers of America (RWA) conference, interviews Nora Roberts, and tries to write a romance novel. The RWA dames give him a righteous smackdown, and also explain the appeal of romance novels to truck-drivers.

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... um ... you're posting an NPR segment for us to listen to on Romance Novels in a thread entitled "Fiction For Men."

That's. just. too. ...

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Austen is just an amazing writer, Persiflage, and I would NEVER consider her a 'romance' writer.

And speaking of men buying bodice-rippers...I'm sure I've told you guys the story about (when I worked at a bookstore) the Korean War vet who would buy and read 60 - 70 romance novels A WEEK, right?

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anyhow ...

an excellent summary of John Buchan's work from a Christian worldview perspective was just written by Nick Baldock a few days ago making the claim that "Buchan is long overdue for rehabilitation as a genuine Christian intellect of the early twentieth century."

The Neglected Legacy of John Buchan

If you do read it, read the whole thing. There a few questionable comments, both about Calvinism and Catholicism, towards the beginning of the article. But once he actually starts looking at Buchan's work (The Blanket of the Dark & Sick Heart River), it makes you want to dust off that part of your bookshelf again.

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... um ... you're posting an NPR segment for us to listen to on Romance Novels in a thread entitled "Fiction For Men."

That's. just. too. ...

What, men don't listen to NPR? News to me. Even my father the die-hard FOX-News/Rush Limbaugh fan listens to NPR now and then. The reporter was male. The point of the post was: at least one reader of romance novels was a male truck-driver.

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From the end of the Lorrie Morgan/Sam Tanenhaus conversation at the New York Times site (at about the 4:20 mark):

LM: I assume my readers are mostly women, but I think they're both [men and women]. I don't know, I think maybe everyone has mostly women readers. That has historically been the case.

ST: Women do the reading!

LM: Historically, it's been 70% pretty constant through the decades.

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It's worth noting that that site (The Art of Manliness) includes articles on How to Use a Handsaw, How to Exit a Room Like a Man (stride manfully? I'm just guessing here), Three Essential Campfires, The Best Guns for Self Defense, and An Introduction to the Art of Gambling. I have missed out on all these gender-defining moments, with the possible exception of walking. Hence the poor, snivelling shell of a man that some of you see fairly regularly.

I do know that I am surrounded by Men. They run power tools continually (the current favorite is the Leaf Blower, which, true to its name, blows leaves around; I prefer the more primitive rake, and I'm usually done in less than half the time. This is good, because leaves don't particularly excite me or generate feelings of enhanced virility). They build fires; big, roaring conflagrations in their back yards, as if they were trying to survive in the wilderness instead of gulping beer behind their tract homes. They may own guns and/or gamble. I don't want to find out. They occasionally corner me in conversation. "How 'bout dem Buckeyes?" they say, or "What's your handicap?"

I never know how to answer these questions. Weak chin? Propensity to exaggerate? There are several, actually. But that's not what they mean. I try to escape as gracefully as I can. "Oh aitch," I typically call out, and make hand signals. That usually gets them going, as they complete the "eye oh" cheer with their own hand signals. They can go on that way for a while, and I can usually return to reading, or learning how to bake, or whatever feminine wiles I'm pursuing at the time.

I don't think any of them read. They know that when the can turns blue, the beer is cold, and that's enough.

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I like the site. I like Elderedge. And I don't have a sports-gene in my whole body.

To paraphrase Elderedge, we live in a society that has downplayed masculine and feminine differences, in general. We live in a society that's all-too-ready to have men in touch with "their feminine side."

I like the differences. Sorry. It doesn't make me sexist to do so. It doesn't make me wish women were not in the workforce or in the military. It simply recognizes that--in those instances where women claim that they can do it all, I've seen the men sit back and let them. Which makes women overworked and frustrated, while the men sit around all day, watching sports, drinking cheap beer.

And I do believe that fatherhood is far, far more important than society gives them credit for.

Peace,

Nick

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I found that link to "manly books" yesterday, and can't even remember where I saw it. I knew I had to post it here, where it would be dissected and dismissed. But I can take it. I'm a man!

Seriously, from the About page at the linked site (bold emphasis mine):

Why the Art of Manliness?

My idea for the Art of Manliness came about as I was standing in Borders bookstore looking at the men’s magazines. It seemed to me that the content in these magazines were continually going downhill, with more and more articles about sex and how to get six pack abs. Was this all there was to being a man?

And as I looked around at the men my age, it seemed to me that many were shirking responsibility and refusing to grow up. They had lost the confidence, focus, skills, and virtues that men of the past had embodied and were a little lost. The feminism movement did some great things, but it also made men confused about their role and no longer proud of the virtues of manliness. This, coupled with the fact that many men were raised without the influence of a good father, has left a generation adrift as to what it means to be an honorable, well-rounded man.

Talking about honorable manliness was to me a niche seemingly not covered on the web or elsewhere, and I decided to start The Art of Manliness to talk about all things manly- both the serious and the fun, but with the ultimate eye toward encouraging readers to be better husbands, fathers, brothers, men.

I don’t claim to have all the answers, nor do I claim that I’m an expert on all things manly. I started this blog not because I had all the answers to being a man, but because I wanted to explore the questions with other men. Thankfully, I’ve found a whole community of men who wish to discover the lost art of manliness too.

If you guys ever saw me, you'd know that I'm far from "manly." I've never much engaged in "manly" activities and have joked repeatedly over the years about the mostly wretched "Movies for Guys Who Love Movies" that used to air on TBS when I was in college. (I didn't care for a single one, although I do love me some movies; does that make me a woman?)

But I have no problems with discussion of gender distinctions and preferences, which are a basic fact of life -- yes, even in the world of literature and reading. So I'll continue to highlight these things as I come across them, although I respect, even encourage, the other views represented here.

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I found that link to "manly books" yesterday, and can't even remember where I saw it. I knew I had to post it here, where it would be dissected and dismissed. But I can take it. I'm a man!

Seriously, from the About page at the linked site (bold emphasis mine):

Why the Art of Manliness?

My idea for the Art of Manliness came about as I was standing in Borders bookstore looking at the men’s magazines. It seemed to me that the content in these magazines were continually going downhill, with more and more articles about sex and how to get six pack abs. Was this all there was to being a man?

And as I looked around at the men my age, it seemed to me that many were shirking responsibility and refusing to grow up. They had lost the confidence, focus, skills, and virtues that men of the past had embodied and were a little lost. The feminism movement did some great things, but it also made men confused about their role and no longer proud of the virtues of manliness. This, coupled with the fact that many men were raised without the influence of a good father, has left a generation adrift as to what it means to be an honorable, well-rounded man.

Talking about honorable manliness was to me a niche seemingly not covered on the web or elsewhere, and I decided to start The Art of Manliness to talk about all things manly- both the serious and the fun, but with the ultimate eye toward encouraging readers to be better husbands, fathers, brothers, men.

I don’t claim to have all the answers, nor do I claim that I’m an expert on all things manly. I started this blog not because I had all the answers to being a man, but because I wanted to explore the questions with other men. Thankfully, I’ve found a whole community of men who wish to discover the lost art of manliness too.

If you guys ever saw me, you'd know that I'm far from "manly." I've never much engaged in "manly" activities and have joked repeatedly over the years about the mostly wretched "Movies for Guys Who Love Movies" that used to air on TBS when I was in college. (I didn't care for a single one, although I do love me some movies; does that make me a woman?)

But I have no problems with discussion of gender distinctions and preferences, which are a basic fact of life -- yes, even in the world of literature and reading. So I'll continue to highlight these things as I come across them, although I respect, even encourage, the other views represented here.

Well, I think it's a worthwhile discussion. And I have no problems with anybody who wants to be a better husband, father, brother, and man. But I think it's also worth pointing out that the guy has discussions on How to Use a Handsaw, How to Exit a Room Like a Man, Three Essential Campfires, The Best Guns for Self Defense, and An Introduction to the Art of Gambling on his site. What any of this has to do with being a man, or a decent human being for that matter, is beyond me. Some of that stuff is funny to me. And I really am surrounded by macho suburban neighbors like that. If I didn't laugh at them, I'd probably be tempted to shoot them, or perhaps something even more manly.

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But I think it's also worth pointing out that the guy has discussions on How to Use a Handsaw, How to Exit a Room Like a Man, Three Essential Campfires, The Best Guns for Self Defense, and An Introduction to the Art of Gambling on his site. ... And I really am surrounded by macho suburban neighbors like that. If I didn't laugh at them, I'd probably be tempted to shoot them, or perhaps something even more manly.

What I find funny about this is that I rented the exact same leafblower Andy has pictured in his blog to clean my leaves last weekend. And I have the iRobot iLooj gutter cleaning robot. It definitely makes me a better husband and father because if I curse at it when it gets stuck UNDER EVERY GUTTER BRACE my wife and kids can't hear me.

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To paraphrase Elderedge, we live in a society that has downplayed masculine and feminine differences, in general. We live in a society that's all-too-ready to have men in touch with "their feminine side."

I like the differences. Sorry. It doesn't make me sexist to do so. It doesn't make me wish women were not in the workforce or in the military. It simply recognizes that--in those instances where women claim that they can do it all, I've seen the men sit back and let them. Which makes women overworked and frustrated, while the men sit around all day, watching sports, drinking cheap beer.

And I do believe that fatherhood is far, far more important than society gives them credit for.

Peace,

Nick

Yes, I can nod in general sympathy with some of your frustrations, but as a man who finds that I don't match up with some of these examples of "manliness", what are we to do? I actually do like sports. I like beer. But I also like poetry and avoiding violence, and I find power tools and the like far more boring than whipping together a 3 course meal (I always think back to the scene in THE GODFATHER when Clemenza is teaching Michael how to cook: "You never know when you're gonna have to feed a room full of men"). Does this make me feminine? When we emphasise the differences, where does that leave those who don't line up? This is a serious issue. Do we inadvertently drive them from what Christian manhood means when the only thing we can talk about is "fixing stuff" and other Tim Allen nonsense?

I think that the problem is not so much having men "all-too-ready to be in touch with their feminine side", but the changing notion of WHAT exactly is feminine and masculine. Is poetry feminine? Is cooking? Is being a gentle human being feminine? The notions of what exactly constitutes each category seem pretty culturally determined, and in the end I'd rather spend my effort on being a better human being than a better "man".

That said, I'm going to read me some Hemmingway.

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Yes, I can nod in general sympathy with some of your frustrations, but as a man who finds that I don't match up with some of these examples of "manliness", what are we to do? I actually do like sports. I like beer. But I also like poetry and avoiding violence, and I find power tools and the like far more boring than whipping together a 3 course meal (I always think back to the scene in THE GODFATHER when Clemenza is teaching Michael how to cook: "You never know when you're gonna have to feed a room full of men"). Does this make me feminine? When we emphasise the differences, where does that leave those who don't line up? This is a serious issue. Do we inadvertently drive them from what Christian manhood means when the only thing we can talk about is "fixing stuff" and other Tim Allen nonsense?

I think that the problem is not so much having men "all-too-ready to be in touch with their feminine side", but the changing notion of WHAT exactly is feminine and masculine. Is poetry feminine? Is cooking? Is being a gentle human being feminine? The notions of what exactly constitutes each category seem pretty culturally determined, and in the end I'd rather spend my effort on being a better human being than a better "man".

That said, I'm going to read me some Hemmingway.

Exactly. So many of the characteristics that are deemed to be "manly" are culturally determined, as evidenced by the range of dubious/ridiculous (gambling, anyone?) activities noted approvingly on the Art of Manliness website. As a Christian male who is trying not to take his cues from the surrounding culture, I'm sure it's worthwhile to consider carefully those attributes that might constitute a good Christian man. And as I try to do so biblically, the attributes honestly don't look much different from what it might mean to be a good Christian woman. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, truthfulness, gentleness and self-control do not appear to be gender-specific qualities.

Love, to take just one of them, can manifest itself in different ways. My father-in-law, God rest his soul, was a master woodworker. There wasn't a power tool he couldn't use expertly. So, perhaps out of self-defense, he hid from his wife and his six daughters out in the woodshop and made stuff. He couldn't verbally express his love for a single one of those seven women, but he loved them. And periodically he emerged with a new chair or a new stereo cabinet, a sort of mute love offering made out of his manliness, I suppose. I, on the other hand, would run shrieking the other way when confronted with a woodshop, but I tend to be a pretty verbal, emotional guy, and I have no problem telling my wife and kids that I love them, because I do. Then sometimes I act like I don't. So for me the challenge is not only to say it, but to at least attempt to act like I mean it. My father-in-law and I could not have been more different temperamentally. Neither of us was or is the better man. We're just different kinds of men, trying and sometimes failing to live up to those nine attributes of manliness and womanliness -- godly living, however you slice it gender-wise -- outlined in Galatians 5.

Edited by Andy Whitman

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Edited to add: I also have grave doubts about any group or culture that doesn't put compassion and concern for other people at the top of its list. The site where Christian found the book list has a big column on the different types of "manly" men - and yet nowhere on that list are roles like mentor, friend, brother. To my mind, that's pretty out of whack! (And I doubt that Jesus would fit into the categories they do have listed. fwiw, "warrior" is number one, and the photo is of Gen. George S. Patton. They could have picked a photo of Gandhi, or Martin Luther King, or Desmond Tutu... but they didn't.)

I think many evangelical pop culture movements would actually reject Jesus for not fitting what they feel a Christian should be...especially "the cult of masculinity".

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Edited to add: I also have grave doubts about any group or culture that doesn't put compassion and concern for other people at the top of its list. The site where Christian found the book list has a big column on the different types of "manly" men - and yet nowhere on that list are roles like mentor, friend, brother. To my mind, that's pretty out of whack! (And I doubt that Jesus would fit into the categories they do have listed. fwiw, "warrior" is number one, and the photo is of Gen. George S. Patton. They could have picked a photo of Gandhi, or Martin Luther King, or Desmond Tutu... but they didn't.)

I think many evangelical pop culture movements would actually reject Jesus for not fitting what they feel a Christian should be...especially "the cult of masculinity".

I don't think this is a fair comment, at all. The website is clearly a secular website, so any promotion of a religious figure might intrude upon the site's general directive. And having read many Christian men's books, Jesus is clearly the model of models, from which all other models give their inspiration.

If it means anything, I see cooking as a very masculine activity. But only if you cut up your own chicken, skin it, de-bone it, crush the bones and brew your own stock for a couple of hours. On a weeknight.

Nick

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I don't think this is a fair comment, at all. The website is clearly a secular website, so any promotion of a religious figure might intrude upon the site's general directive. And having read many Christian men's books, Jesus is clearly the model of models, from which all other models give their inspiration.

I was being a lot more general. There is a definite cult of masculinity in the church that seek examples like Braveheart and Gladiator long before they appeal to Jesus. I had a lot of friends who got real into the Eldridge books a few years back. Most of them speak of it in embarrassed tones or outright ridicule now, because they found the whole ideal of "men as valiant knights and women as princesses needing to be saved and protected" a bit silly when they started to dig deeper. Such attitudes are sexist...and leave me skeptical of the whole debate. The minute I hear whining about our culture having become feminized my mind's eye glazes over, and that seems to be a common trope for the mens movement AND the Christian men's movement.

If it means anything, I see cooking as a very masculine activity. But only if you cut up your own chicken, skin it, de-bone it, crush the bones and brew your own stock for a couple of hours. On a weeknight.

I can only agree with this if you get up and catch the chicken before dawn.

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There is a definite cult of masculinity in the church that seek examples like Braveheart and Gladiator long before they appeal to Jesus.
I have heard these examples too, but not in the way that you describe. In my circles, it's more like "There's a reason why _Braveheart_ and _Gladiator_ connected with men on a massive scale, because our society lacks role models of this sort today." That's not to say that William Wallace ought to take the place of Jesus, but rather that there's something innate within (a lot of) men that find something intangible-but-emulation-worthy within these Hollywood re-characterizations. And then building off of those images to bridge to Jesus.

I can only agree with this if you get up and catch the chicken before dawn.
So, only chicken farmers can be masculine cooks? Aren't you forgetting cowboys?

Nick

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If it means anything, I see cooking as a very masculine activity. But only if you cut up your own chicken, skin it, de-bone it, crush the bones and brew your own stock for a couple of hours. On a weeknight.

Nick

Clearly you are a pretender at masculinity, because every real man knows that only the beheading is done by the man. The rest of it (plucking, gutting, etc) is woman's work. Maybe, just maybe, the cooking is man's work but only if it involves a grill (with real hardwood lump charcoal).

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