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Peter T Chattaway

Avengers: Endgame

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Links to our threads on Iron Man (2008), The Incredible Hulk (2008), Iron Man 2 (2010), Thor (2011), Captain America: The First Avenger (2011), The Avengers (2012), Iron Man 3 (2013), Thor: The Dark World (2013), Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014), Guardians of the Galaxy (2014), Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015), Ant-Man (2015), Captain America: Civil War (2016), Doctor Strange (2016), Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (2017), Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017), Thor: Ragnarok (2017), Black Panther (2018), Avengers: Infinity War (2018), Ant-Man and the Wasp (2018), Captain Marvel (2019) and Spider-Man: Far from Home (2019).

Coming April 26, 2019.

Edited by Peter T Chattaway

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The Wrap notes that the release dates for most of the post-2017 films have changed, now that Spider-Man is being added to the Marvel Cinematic Universe that year. But it doesn't say whether the Infinity War movies have shifted at all. So for now I'm just shifting the release dates of the movies mentioned by The Wrap, but I will update the list above later as more information comes in... and once it's all settled, I'll update the information in the other films' threads too.

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I was not a fan. My friend Andrew Johnson does a more substantive (and mildly spoilerish) job of enumerating faults. My own take is that I'm just tired of the whole thing and think if this had been a DC Movie or Left Behind: The Superheroes Andrew's criticism's might be more widespread:

https://letterboxd.com/writerandrew/film/avengers-endgame/

I wanted to love it, because I miss my childhood (and young-adult) enthusiasm, but....

For those of you that still have that, I'm happy for you and maybe a little jealous. Carry on.

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3 hours ago, kenmorefield said:

I wanted to love it, because I miss my childhood (and young-adult) enthusiasm, but....

For those of you that still have that, I'm happy for you and maybe a little jealous. Carry on.

This is something I wonder about frequently. Have the movies changed or have I changed? I certainly hardly ever feel the thrill from summer blockbusters that I felt from movies through my teen years. (That was the 1980s.) I've sometimes returned to those films to show them to my own kids now, but it's not unusual for me to feel some disconnect with the material, even as I still enjoy the films.

So it must be me, not the movies, right? 

No. The blockbusters of today are worse, and the kids just don't have my endless wisdom and experience to inform their Marvel-crazed opinions.

Something like that.

This is why I got so excited about The Kid Who Would Be King. Not only did my kids love it, but it made me feel like a kid again while watching it.

Thanks for letting me post these thoughts, which will get buried by Endgame (thread-appropriate) reactions. I haven't seen the film yet, though I enjoyed the earlier Avengers movies more than I expected to. If I see Endgame and am moved to say anything about it, I'll be sure to post here.

Edited by Christian

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5 hours ago, Christian said:

No. The blockbusters of today are worse, and the kids just don't have my endless wisdom and experience to inform their Marvel-crazed opinions.

image.png

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I kid. More seriously, I had mixed-to-positive feelings about Endgame (here's my review), but it's nowhere near as incredible as it's being touted by the MCU fan-cult; it's currently #5 in the IMDB Top 250.

Screen Shot 2019-04-26 at 21.59.03.png

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So I complain about these movies all the time and then I go and see them all the same. Did that for Endgame and--y'know, it's fine. Better than fine, in places. I would be lying if I said I wasn't moved in spots and I think that the movie does a fair enough job juggling its mandate (which is, bring back all those people dusted in the last movie) without seeming too cheap about it (there's cost and there's people who--because they weren't dusted--can't be brought back). There's some nice nods to the MCU's development--Jon Favreau gets a particularly lovely bit, considering he created the whole dang thing with Iron Man--and there's the requisite amount of fan-pleasing stuff of both the stupid and the smart variety. 

I certainly liked it better than Infinity War.

EDIT: Does no one think of the fact that de-dusting all those dusted people would be at least as catastrophic for the world as dusting them in the first place?

Edited by NBooth

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2 hours ago, NBooth said:

EDIT: Does no one think of the fact that de-dusting all those dusted people would be at least as catastrophic for the world as dusting them in the first place?

I've mentioned a couple of times in conversation that the last two Avengers movies have not been helped by the structural similarities and similar structural faults to Left Behind. 

No, I'm not saying they are of the same quality, execution-wise, but those of us who wallowed week after week for years in Fred Clark's section by section hammering of Left Behind can't help but notice similar problems in the MCU...an inability to depict or even imagine the consequences of its premise, resulting in a depiction of a world that is curiously and unbelievably unchanged in some ways by the events and miraculously but implausibly changed in others.

I had all of three notes in my notebook after my screening, and one was: "Would MLB go away if half the population disappeared?" 

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25 minutes ago, kenmorefield said:

I've mentioned a couple of times in conversation that the last two Avengers movies have not been helped by the structural similarities and similar structural faults to Left Behind. 

No, I'm not saying they are of the same quality, execution-wise, but those of us who wallowed week after week for years in Fred Clark's section by section hammering of Left Behind can't help but notice similar problems in the MCU...an inability to depict or even imagine the consequences of its premise, resulting in a depiction of a world that is curiously and unbelievably unchanged in some ways by the events and miraculously but implausibly changed in others.

I had all of three notes in my notebook after my screening, and one was: "Would MLB go away if half the population disappeared?" 

Yes, I've often said that, whatever your feelings about the films, Man of Steel and Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice do a much better job of selling the world-changing impact of the appearance of Superman and the Kryptonian attack than the MCU films do the impact of "New York" in the first Avengers, for all the lip service.

Hoping to catch Endgame soon (but 3 hours! I've got kids, a job, and NBA playoffs to watch). I was lukewarm on Infinity War.

Edited by Anders

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8 hours ago, kenmorefield said:

I've mentioned a couple of times in conversation that the last two Avengers movies have not been helped by the structural similarities and similar structural faults to Left Behind. 

No, I'm not saying they are of the same quality, execution-wise, but those of us who wallowed week after week for years in Fred Clark's section by section hammering of Left Behind can't help but notice similar problems in the MCU...an inability to depict or even imagine the consequences of its premise, resulting in a depiction of a world that is curiously and unbelievably unchanged in some ways by the events and miraculously but implausibly changed in others.

I had all of three notes in my notebook after my screening, and one was: "Would MLB go away if half the population disappeared?" 

This is a good point; my own thoughts in the opening moments (and those of my viewing companion) turned to The Leftovers, which might do a better job than Left Behind.

A difference would be that The Leftovers isn't really meant to be a realistic look at a post-Rapture world; it's a meditation on grief and loss. And Endgame isn't, really; I've seen people saying it's "about" grief, but it's really "about" reversing a shock ending. Some of the characters grieve, but that has to get moved past pretty quickly.

That said, there's something significant about the fact that the movie repeatedly draws attention to deaths that can't be reversed by the film's central gimmick: Tony, of course--but also Natasha and Vision and Thor's mother and Tony's father. The shot of Hawkeye and Wanda standing and contemplating their permanent (for now?) losses while behind them people are reunited with their lost loved ones--that's a moment where the movie almost becomes something more than the sum of its parts. Insofar as the movie gets a chance to be "about" grief, it's in moments like this and Thor's conversation with his mother--moments that push the movie toward a meditation on the irrecoverable. Alas, I don't think 

Endgame goes quite far enough, here; a truly staggering conclusion would be to have the Avengers fail to bring anyone back. That doesn't work for the kind of movie it is, thought.

8 hours ago, Anders said:

Yes, I've often said that, whatever your feelings about the films, Man of Steel and Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice do a much better job of selling the world-changing impact of the appearance of Superman and the Kryptonian attack than the MCU films do the impact of "New York" in the first Avengers, for all the lip service.

This seems accurate to me.

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16 hours ago, Anders said:

Yes, I've often said that, whatever your feelings about the films, Man of Steel and Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice do a much better job of selling the world-changing impact of the appearance of Superman and the Kryptonian attack than the MCU films do the impact of "New York" in the first Avengers, for all the lip service.

I'm with you on this, and one could even add Wonder Woman and Justice League here--I'm thinking here of how Wonder Woman addressed death and suffering and the human tendency towards war. Sometimes the DC films become too pseudo-philosophical or existential, but I think I prefer that sort of attempted weightiness rather than a flippant Tony Stark comment or a Steve Rogers pat on the back. But maybe I'm just too dark and brooding.

The farther I get from the actual viewing of Endgame, the more problems I have with it. But my experience of seeing it in a packed cinema was genuinely wonderful, as I was caught up in the MCU fervor within the room. I can't imagine how I'd feel about it if I had seen it alone in my living room.

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https://twitter.com/Russo_Brothers/status/1123968719607218179

 

If all goes well, I should be seeing Endgame Saturday night. Good thing too, since apparently the "spoiler ban lifts on Monday!" <_<

Edited by Anders

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4 hours ago, Anders said:

apparently the "spoiler ban lifts on Monday!" <_<

The notion of a "spoiler ban" lifting as determined by the film's directors is problematic for me on all sorts of levels. I still enjoyed the film overall, but things like this are not helping. I was mentioning to a friend today who hadn't yet seen Endgame how the Russos are essentially like a solid B- student in education--they are consistently fine, definitely not outright failures, but certainly not standouts or the top of the class. Even with his faults, one wonders what Infinity War/Endgame would have been like under the helm of Joss Whedon, or at least a director with a distinctive style and vision. (Tangential: one of the Russos' kids attends U. of St Andrews.)

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7 hours ago, Joel Mayward said:

The notion of a "spoiler ban" lifting as determined by the film's directors is problematic for me on all sorts of levels. I still enjoyed the film overall, but things like this are not helping. I was mentioning to a friend today who hadn't yet seen Endgame how the Russos are essentially like a solid B- student in education--they are consistently fine, definitely not outright failures, but certainly not standouts or the top of the class. Even with his faults, one wonders what Infinity War/Endgame would have been like under the helm of Joss Whedon, or at least a director with a distinctive style and vision. (Tangential: one of the Russos' kids attends U. of St Andrews.)

Just so it's clear. I think the idea that they get to determine when a "spoiler ban" lifts is just ridiculous. So, I agree with you.

Also, Whedon has a distinctive "voice;" not sure he has a "style."

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Embargo=Please don't tell people our movie was any good.

Not Screened for Critics=Please don't tell people our movie sucked.

Spoiler Ban=Please don't tell people how our movie sucked.

 

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3 hours ago, Anders said:

Also, Whedon has a distinctive "voice;" not sure he has a "style."

Ah, that's a fair distinction. At least he brings *something* distinctive.

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Well, finally saw it. My first thought was: was there a cultural 180, which I missed, deciding that the Seinfeld finale was a good idea? The referencing past installments in an endless parade of favorite moments felt exactly the same to me--a fun, fan-servicing idea on paper, really long and boring in execution.

Also, I take it Loki is permanently dead, since he was killed before Thanos snapped his fingers? Tom Hiddleston was by far the best thing about this franchise, so with him gone, there's really no point to these movies.

 

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Loki is apparently getting a Disney+ show. 

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More thoughts, about several big plot holes that are bothering me.

MASSIVE SPOILERS

VERY MASSIVE SPOILERS

SERIOUSLY, DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU WISH TO AVOID SPOILERS

LAST SPOILER WARNING

 

Why do Hawkeye's kids age five years, but Peter Parker stays the exact same age? Also why are Peter and his friends all still in high school after five years?

Steve Rogers' going back in time to marry Peggy definitely violates the time travel rules stipulated by the movie. Also, wouldn't he have had to kill the other version of himself for that to work?

If Thanos only suffered injuries from using the stones to destroy the stones, shouldn't at least *some* of the other characters been able to use them without sustaining injuries the same way Thanos did in the first film? Hulk was already exposed to enough radiation it seems like he should have been able to bring the people back without repercussions. And shouldn't the gauntlet and the Iron Man suit have been enough for Tony not to have been killed by the stones?

Also, isn't wiping out Thanos' entire army excessive (and arguably genocide)? I mean, eliminating Thanos and his adviser and maybe a few of the space ships should have been enough to stop the attack, so killing all his soldiers (who would presumably stop fighting once their leaders were dead) is surely excessive violence.

Finally, as exciting as it was to see all the Avengers assemble for that final battle, please tell me I'm not the only one who thought the filming of the battle itself was bleak, dull, and anticlimactic with little in the way of choreographed action (beyond people flying toward one another and backward from being punched) (For example, just contrast the fights in Aquaman...)

And I couldn't believe how out of focus the tracking shot of all the people at Tony's funeral was. (Or was that the projector at my theater?)

I'll stop before I end up hating this.

Edited by Evan C

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2 hours ago, Evan C said:

Also, wouldn't he have had to kill the other version of himself for that to work?

Wouldn't there not be another version of himself there to be killed, because he was trapped in the ice all that time?

Also, this reminds me why Shane Carruth's Primer is so good.

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2 hours ago, Evan C said:

More thoughts, about several big plot holes that are bothering me.

MASSIVE SPOILERS

VERY MASSIVE SPOILERS

SERIOUSLY, DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU WISH TO AVOID SPOILERS

LAST SPOILER WARNING

 

Also, isn't wiping out Thanos' entire army excessive (and arguably genocide)? I mean, eliminating Thanos and his adviser and maybe a few of the space ships should have been enough to stop the attack, so killing all his soldiers (who would presumably stop fighting once their leaders were dead) is surely excessive violence.

 

Hmmm....so the fascist dictator terrorist actually ends up making those who must wield power to destroy even more bloodthirsty? 

If I had been paying more attention I guess I might be able to claim his army is some sort of dehumanized non-sentient being that must be destroyed like mindless animals. (What does one do with pit bulls who have been tortured to the point that they are no longer safe to have around?) But then, isn't that the excuse we always use. 

Since we are now post Spoiler territory, can I just add what I asked on Twitter? How many of Dr. Strange's 12 million scenarios were essentially the same thing only without the random rat that turns on a piece of electrical machinery that somehow still has a battery charged after five years? 

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48 minutes ago, Joel Mayward said:

Wouldn't there not be another version of himself there to be killed, because he was trapped in the ice all that time?

Also, this reminds me why Shane Carruth's Primer is so good.

Ah, so the trapped in the ice version thawed out and still joined the Avengers in 2012. But wouldn't marrying Peggy have still been a violation of the rules the film established?

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Must I preface this note with a 

SPOILER WARNING

or are we past that now?

 

TIME TRAVEL RUINS STORYTELLING. Almost all of the time.

As I exited the theater from Infinity War, I turned to my friend Danny and said, "Welp, Ant-Man will save the day. Quantum Realm makes anything possible. And so the next one will be all about time travel to fix things." I was not excited by this prospect. And sure enough, this made for a suspense-free experience for me... and a long, long three hours.

Oh well. These movies have never been for me. I have three or four I enjoy, but I'm ready to move on. And besides, Spider-Verse spoiled the MCU for me by showing me how everything could be 100 times better.

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