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1 film per director or 2?  

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14 minutes ago, Darren H said:

For real. If we end up with 24 voters in this poll and one has effectively said, "I don't care," shouldn't the denominator be 23?

In the further interest of transparency, I'm surprised to discover that this one vs. two vote is the only part of the process so far that I've felt strongly about. I wish there were a clear winner in the race.

There may yet be, pending the final vote, though as I said in a moderator thread, either "side" will have a legitimate beef. 

I do think "no preference" is a legit vote that should be counted since the voter(s) ostensibly would understand, like in a political primary, that the result was dependent on candidates receiving a certain percentage of the vote and that a "no preference" was more or less a de facto vote against changing the process...and votes  had the the option of not voting at all if he/she wanted his vote to not be counted. 

I'm reaching out to that voter for some insight / clarification about his/her intention as well as reaching out to the Round 1 participant who didn't vote in the poll at all. 

Another thing that I am seeking to understand ("Listen" and "Clarify" in the GSD wheel above) is the potential diffidence gap, if any. To that end, Darren's and Andrew's messages are helpful in giving me a clearer (but by no means clear yet) picture of whether there is a gap between people who were/are "torn" but leaning one way or the other and people who have strong feelings about the vote. I could understand people not wanting to publicly put their toes in that water, but if anyone else wants to chime in on that regard either here or via Private Message, I would count it as a helpful communication and not just a peppering one. I'd like to make a decision sometime today, but I want to give it a  few more hours to hear back from some people I've messaged privately.

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Decision: We will go with the 1 film / director list.

New Information:
The person who did not vote got back to me and clarified that he (it will become apparent it wasn't a "she" since Beth is our only "she" and she is still around) did not vote by intention -- in fact he indicated most likely that he won't participate any further moving forward (Rd2, blurbs, etc.) 

The person who voted "no preference" affirmed to me that he thought my adding that option meant that I wanted everyone to vote -- that not voting was not an option. He also stated that he voted that way because both lists have merit and he would be okay with either result. Perhaps most importantly for me -- he indicated that the intent behind his vote was, since he was diffident, to let those who "cared more" determine the outcome. Also, he said, if it would help, he was okay with withdrawing his vote entirely , or, if absolutely required to pick one or the other, he'd probably pick the 1 film list. Either of these two (throwing out the vote or changing it to 1 film) would result in the 1 film list meeting *both* thresholds (at least 14 votes and at least 60%).

Rationale: 
The root problem (with the results) is that I gave two thresholds (60% and 14 voters) that I thought were Identical but were actually in contradiction. When thinking back over why I felt the need to say both, if they were identical , a light-bulb clicked when the person told me that he assumed by putting the "no preference" on the ballot that I wanted everyone to vote. I had to think, "Did I?" The answer was not necessarily...I did want abstaining to be an option. But -- and this was the overriding consideration for me -- I wanted to change only if there was a *clear* majority in favor of doing so. If voting were optional and only 10 people voted and the vote were 6 to 4 (with 15 not voting), I didn't want to have to change based on the preferences of 1/4 of the participants. That really wasn't the case. 14 out of 23 (the final results) was the exact benchmark I proposed -- enough of a plurality that it wasn't just a narrow majority and enough participation (even though it was 92% participation rather than 100%) in the poll to make it clear that this was an actual majority and not just a vocal or enthusiastic minority.

Stuff I feel bad about:
Letting one person vote after the deadline and one person change his vote after the deadline is questionable. But if neither had been done then the vote would have been 14-8-1 which would still have meant the 1 film side prevailed on audit (because one of the 1 film votes that PMed me to change hadn't been tallied.) Also, letting people change votes at all (even before the deadline) is questionable. But, I've sort of looked at the audit less as a Supreme Court ensuring election rules are followed and more like an NFL instant-replay review. Were the votes counted accurately and are the results an accurate reflection of what people voted for. I am confident they are. 

Side thought:
At least one person expressed to me privately some distaste about lobbying (either on forum or privately I could not tell). I'm not sure how to parse that. I think "debate" from the GSD wheel above is a healthy part of the process and helps us (or me anyway) arrive at the right conclusion by bringing to light points, ideas, that people might not have considered if we all just solemnly kept to a "no lobbying" rule. That said, I'm not privvy to everything that was said privately or even to how everyone has different comfort levels with debate. I bring this point up not to chastise anyone but to invite reflection (or even discussion) about how we individually and corporately express ourselves and respond to others doing so.

Conclusion:
Darren, if you are still willing, will you prepare the Round 2 ballot that allows us to pick between the films from the 18 directors that have two films? I'd like it to go out no later than Monday, so if you can't, let me know. I'd like a short deadline on that but I am open to how much time others need.

P.S. I posted in the process thread about just now realizing we need to deal with "ties" too. For that reason, I am open to reconsidering not having the option to reshuffle the top 25. Since we're going to have to have at least one more vote or poll to deal with ties. I am concerned, though, that in a 1 director list, the jumps between 1 and 25 could be more dramatic, but if we wanted to make the director ballot Round 1a, I'm open to doing a Round 2 --- particularly since some people mentioned that round 1a could effect *which* film is in the Top 25. One compromise might be a Round 2 where we could reshuffle the Top 10 (or Top 15). -- But this last P.S. is part of me thinking out loud. 

I want to thank everyone, too. I know my patience has been strained at times this week because I am anxious to get the list out and because of sleep issues around work deadlines. But everyone has been very patient and affirming with me, and from where I sit (your mileage may vary) it has sure looked like people have expressed a desire for the best product possible and not just for having their own way.

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Thank you Ken! And thank you to everyone who has been involved and also been patient and listening. What a voting process it's been (and we're not done yet!). I finally had the chance to watch the Zoom chat recording (so great to see people's faces and hear voices!), and M. Leary made an observation there about canonization, comparing our list-making to the process of creating the biblical canon. What we're doing is not exactly scripture, but there is something peculiar and sacred about it, and there's a personal investment being made from all those involved. And I think it's important to recognize this, that somehow in this complicated process we're hopefully not becoming just better cinephiles, but perhaps even better persons, that we can have honest conversations and debates over the internet about film (but also more than film) without it devolving. If part of the "spiritually significant" criteria was a sense of "being more aware" of the world around us, then (without being sappy) I am certainly more aware of each of you. It's been a messy process, yet I think the list (and our community) is truly better for it—and this is coming from someone who voted 2-films-per-director. :) 

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Thanks for all your work, Ken. And thank you to everyone involved for the discussion which I think has enriched the list and all of us as well.

On 5/16/2020 at 4:51 PM, kenmorefield said:

Side thought:

At least one person expressed to me privately some distaste about lobbying (either on forum or privately I could not tell). I'm not sure how to parse that. I think "debate" from the GSD wheel above is a healthy part of the process and helps us (or me anyway) arrive at the right conclusion by bringing to light points, ideas, that people might not have considered if we all just solemnly kept to a "no lobbying" rule. That said, I'm not privvy to everything that was said privately or even to how everyone has different comfort levels with debate. I bring this point up not to chastise anyone but to invite reflection (or even discussion) about how we individually and corporately express ourselves and respond to others doing so.

I was going to start a thread for anyone who wants to advocate for one film of a director over the other could, and where we could weigh the merits of both films for the final list, but if others prefer not to have such a thread, I won't start one.

"Anyway, in general I love tragic artists, especially classical ones."

"Even the forms for expressing truth can be multiform, and this is indeed necessary for the transmission of the Gospel in its timeless meaning."

- Pope Francis, August 2013 interview with Antonio Spadaro

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27 minutes ago, Evan C said:

I was going to start a thread for anyone who wants to advocate for one film of a director over the other could, and where we could weigh the merits of both films for the final list, but if others prefer not to have such a thread, I won't start one.

I abstained on several of these, but was surprised at how torn I was on the two Miyazakis. (I did vote, but won't say for which film.)

"What matters are movies, not awards; experiences, not celebrations; the subjective power of individual critical points of view, not the declamatory compromises of consensus." - Richard Brody, "Godard's Surprise Win Is a Victory for Independent Cinema," The New Yorker

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1 hour ago, Evan C said:

Thanks for all your work, Ken. And thank you to everyone involved for the discussion which I think has enriched the list and all of us as well.

I was going to start a thread for anyone who wants to advocate for one film of a director over the other could, and where we could weigh the merits of both films for the final list, but if others prefer not to have such a thread, I won't start one.

I was heading over to the lobbying thread to do my own, so I have no objection.

From my vantage point, things have gone remarkably smoothly because people have been upfront and reflective not just about their preferences but about their boundaries. I've never understood blanket prohibitions against debate or lobbying (or attempts to parse the difference between them), but I don't mind gentle reminders now and then to be self-aware of tone and tenor. Certainly if there is a separate thread for lobbying those who might have thicker boundaries in that area can shy away from it without asking people who want to exchange ideas (or even debate) to refrain from it entirely.

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