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Watchmen (2009)

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Christian wrote:

: That IS a funny line! On that subject, after The Reader and now Watchmen, is male frontal nudity no longer taboo?

Hmmm, I seem to recall someone pointing out a couple years ago that there had been a rash of male frontal nudity, in films like Eastern Promises. I can't remember what the other examples were.

Darryl A. Armstrong wrote:

: Nite Owl was partially based off of Batman, of course.

Was he? I thought he was based more on Blue Beetle (and Rorshach was based on The Question, and Dr. Manhattan was based on The Atom, and the Watchmen in general were based on the Charlton Comics characters in general; in fact, if I'm not mistaken, Watchmen was originally going to feature the Charlton characters themselves, but then DC Comics -- which had bought Charlton in 1983 -- decided to merge all of its existing universes with the Crisis on Infinite Earths storyline in 1985, and so they said Watchmen had to exist in its own universe entirely).


"Sympathy must precede belligerence. First I must understand the other, as it were, from the inside; then I can critique it from the outside. So many people skip right to the latter." -- Steven D. Greydanus
Now blogging at Patheos.com. I can also still be found at Facebook, Twitter and Flickr. See also my film journal.

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Darryl A. Armstrong wrote:

: Nite Owl was partially based off of Batman, of course.

Was he? I thought he was based more on Blue Beetle (and Rorshach was based on The Question, and Dr. Manhattan was based on The Atom, and the Watchmen in general were based on the Charlton Comics characters in general; in fact, if I'm not mistaken, Watchmen was originally going to feature the Charlton characters themselves, but then DC Comics -- which had bought Charlton in 1983 -- decided to merge all of its existing universes with the Crisis on Infinite Earths storyline in 1985, and so they said Watchmen had to exist in its own universe entirely).

Strictly speaking, Peter, you're correct. Nite Owl is Blue Beetle. However, I've always thought that abandoning those Charlton characters was a great idea, because I've actually thought that the three primary, non-powered characters reflected different aspects of Batman's character quite nicely: Nite Owl, the gadget-armed technological crimefighter; Rorschach, the dark, insane detective; and Ozymandias, the humanitarian, billionaire who believes that only he can save the world from itself.

Of course, all of them are parts of the character of Batman, who is pretty complex. However, in recent comics, I've felt that Batman has drifted too much toward the Rorschach side of things. One thing I appreciated about The Dark Knight was that while maintaining a realistic, "dark" setting, it explored the other two sides of Batman quite a bit more (particularly Bruce Wayne as an Adrian Veidt character).


"A director must live with the fact that his work will be called to judgment by someone who has never seen a film of Murnau's." - François Truffaut

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: Nite Owl was partially based off of Batman, of course.

Was he? I thought he was based more on Blue Beetle (and Rorshach was based on The Question, and Dr. Manhattan was based on The Atom, and the Watchmen in general were based on the Charlton Comics characters in general; in fact, if I'm not mistaken, Watchmen was originally going to feature the Charlton characters themselves, but then DC Comics -- which had bought Charlton in 1983 -- decided to merge all of its existing universes with the Crisis on Infinite Earths storyline in 1985, and so they said Watchmen had to exist in its own universe entirely).

Captain Atom, actually. But yes, the original idea was to use the Charlton characters, until DC Decided to bring them into the DCU Proper. In creating his own characters, Moore was able to broaden the scope, and Nite Owl's appearance owes more to Batman, though his gadgets retain more of the original plan to cast Blue Beetle (Nite Owl's Owl Ship is clearly Blue Beetle's "bug"). Moer was commenting on superheroes in general, and the Charlton characters were ultimately fill ins for the big DCU heroes to begin with.

Edited by Nezpop

"You know...not EVERY story has to be interesting." -Gibby

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Um, wow... I'm guessing she didn't like it:

If you take your kids to see "The Watchmen," you're a moron.

If you see it yourself, you're also probably a moron and a vapid, indecent human being. The movie arrives in theaters at Midnight, Thursday Night. It's rated "R"--which should kinda sorta be a hint--but it really deserves an "NC-17," at the very least. And plenty of clueless parents brought their young kids and kept them there for the entire almost three hour "experience".

Yes, I know, it's being heavily marketed as a superhero movie, with action figures for your kids. But that--and the heroic-looking movie trailer--are a big, fat lie. And that's where real parenting comes in . . . like actually investigating the movie before you take or send your kids to see this garbage.

In fact, as a movie critic who sees most new releases, I haven't seen a more violent, depraved movie in years (not to mention a longer, more boring movie with a more preposterous and silly plot). This movie makes the graphic bloodshed of the recently released "Friday the 13th" look like "Cinderella."


"It's a dangerous business going out your front door." -- J.R.R. Tolkien
"I want to believe in art-induced epiphanies." -- Josie
"I would never be dismissive of pop entertainment; it's much too serious a matter for that." -- NBooth

"If apologetics could prove God, I would lose all faith in Him." -- Josie

"What if--just what if--the very act of storytelling is itself redemptive? What if gathering up the scraps and fragments of a disordered life and binding them between the pages of a book in all of their fragmentary disorder is itself a gambit against that disorder?" -- NBooth

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Ack, I couldn't even finish reading that. Regardless of whether her thoughts have merit or not, the way she delivers them (and the total lack of any AP stylebook sensibility) made me cut off.

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If you see it yourself, you're also probably a moron and a vapid, indecent human being. The movie arrives in theaters at Midnight, Thursday Night. It's rated "R"--which should kinda sorta be a hint--but it really deserves an "NC-17," at the very least. And plenty of clueless parents brought their young kids and kept them there for the entire almost three hour "experience".

Well, this from a woman whose chief criticism of Spider-Man movies is that Peter Parker cries, and that makes him weak.

And if the previews lead you to believe "kids" movie? You are a bit of an idiot. But to suggest that anyone who sees a certain film is a moron, vapid, indecent human being? What's this say about her? She saw it. Note, her criticisms were not aimed at people who liked it...it was directly and clearly stated that anyone who saw it was a moron, vapid, indecent human being. I would not assume that was true of someone based simply on whether or not they liked a certain movie.

If anyone thinks this film is being heavily marketed to kids? They are a moron.

Ack, I couldn't even finish reading that. Regardless of whether her thoughts have merit or not, the way she delivers them (and the total lack of any AP stylebook sensibility) made me cut off.

Try reading the replies. This is a clear case of "fingers typing, brain not engaged" reactionary panic. I tried reading through it, never seeing a point where she made a valuable point. This is the case whenever I see her on TV, in print or on the web. She is always offering half baked, overblown commentary, usually with nothing but incorrect information to back her up. I try and be respectful of other opinions, but I require they at least have some sort of actual logic and erason to back them up-not just be full on moral panic and "what about the children?!"

Edited by Nezpop

"You know...not EVERY story has to be interesting." -Gibby

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Well, this from a woman whose chief criticism of Spider-Man movies is that Peter Parker cries, and that makes him weak.

And if the previews lead you to believe "kids" movie? You are a bit of an idiot. But to suggest that anyone who sees a certain film is a moron, vapid, indecent human being? What's this say about her? She saw it. Note, her criticisms were not aimed at people who liked it...it was directly and clearly stated that anyone who saw it was a moron, vapid, indecent human being. I would not assume that was true of someone based simply on whether or not they liked a certain movie.

If anyone thinks this film is being heavily marketed to kids? They are a moron.

After scrolling through the comments, I feel like she immediately disqualifies herself as someone capable of critical thought

Edited by Jason Panella

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This movie has a huge disparity in the early reviews between Rotten Tomatoes' "Top Pics" and the full tomatoemeter. The Top Pics rate it at only 33% while the overall critical measurement is at 63%.


Scott -- 2nd Story -- Twitter

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We don't seem to have a discussion thread for the actual graphic novel, so I've started one -- and reposted the first six grafs of my review of the film, which are all about the source material.

Watchmen - the graphic novel


“I write because I don’t know what I think until I read what I say.” — Flannery O'Connor

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EDIT: This woman was not on my radar 'til now. I do not like dismissing another human being, but this is probably a case where I'll be glad when I forget about her later today.

I've never heard of her before either but that, uh, "review" was just so over-the-top I couldn't resist...


"It's a dangerous business going out your front door." -- J.R.R. Tolkien
"I want to believe in art-induced epiphanies." -- Josie
"I would never be dismissive of pop entertainment; it's much too serious a matter for that." -- NBooth

"If apologetics could prove God, I would lose all faith in Him." -- Josie

"What if--just what if--the very act of storytelling is itself redemptive? What if gathering up the scraps and fragments of a disordered life and binding them between the pages of a book in all of their fragmentary disorder is itself a gambit against that disorder?" -- NBooth

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EDIT: This woman was not on my radar 'til now. I do not like dismissing another human being, but this is probably a case where I'll be glad when I forget about her later today.

I've never heard of her before either but that, uh, "review" was just so over-the-top I couldn't resist...

That's her style. Her "work" is one of those "once you've seen it, you cannot unsee it" things. I actually wote up a bit about it on my blog (to be "published" tomorrow).


"You know...not EVERY story has to be interesting." -Gibby

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I have to say that my interest is somewhat piqued... I don't follow graphic novels, so I had no knowledge of the agony to bring this to the screen, until last year's ComicCon cover story for EW.

For all those who have seen the film--and feel free to pm me if you feel the need to--all I want to know is, how does Watchmen compare to Sin City?

Because Sin City had all the elements that attracted me to it--it looked cool, it had good explosions, it had a graphic novel basis--but after seeing it I felt like I needed to shower for a month. There's something to be said for story, for characters you can root for, for deep themes. I'm not saying this can't be accomplished with the typical R (or borderline NC-17) elements; but it's something that I would root for, if the story was good enough.

Nick


Nick Alexander

Keynote, Worship Leader, Comedian, Parodyist

Host of the Prayer Meeting Podcast - your virtual worship oasis. (Subscribe)

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I actually want the same answer as Nick - if I go see Watchmen, will I feel dirty having done so?


In case you were wondering, my name is spelled "Denes House," but it's pronounced "Throatwobbler Mangrove."

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I actually want the same answer as Nick - if I go see Watchmen, will I feel dirty having done so?

As a fan of comic books, have you read the graphic novel?


"A director must live with the fact that his work will be called to judgment by someone who has never seen a film of Murnau's." - François Truffaut

Twitter.
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Reviews and essays at Three Brothers Film.

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Yes, probably about nine or ten times.


In case you were wondering, my name is spelled "Denes House," but it's pronounced "Throatwobbler Mangrove."

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Maybe Debbie Schlussel would've preferred to watch this...

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"I feel a nostalgia for an age yet to come..."
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And speaking of Ms. Schlussel, this is from her latest Watchmen-related post:

I guess I shouldn't be amazed at the number of slacker ignoramuses who are up in arms about my frank review cutting down the absolute crap they worship a/k/a "Watchmen", coming out in theaters late tonight. The e-mails they send me and the comments they make about how "deep," "edgy" and "profound" this vile piece of trash (which is none of these) is, reminds me of the blind statements of followers of Jim Jones. And we all know what happened after they drank he purple Kool-Aid. If only this movie could achieve that result, it would be the most fantastic exercise in natural selection ever conducted in America...

...Oh, and by the way, to all of you slacker Watchmen defenders and fanatics--who resemble the many respondents on "Jay Walking," yet are suddenly the self-appointed intellectual lights of our world--grisly is grisly, and gratuitous, graphic violence serves no positive or useful purpose in our society, even if you read it first in a comic book. You're a bunch of dummies with no moral compass, but liking this stupid comic book which pretends violence and the depraved is "edgy" or "sophisticated," makes you feel smart. When you're actually quite stupid. But now, with this movie, you've got pretentious stupidity. You don't realize you're still just as dumb, your IQ just as low and probably lower.

Wow... where do you even begin? I mean, I've written my fair share of reviews and whatnot that get pretty punchy, but the sheer amount of vitriol on display makes it nearly impossible to take any of her criticisms seriously. It's like reading a caricature of a review.


"I feel a nostalgia for an age yet to come..."
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My favorite part?

Poor Hitler. If only he'd made Mein Kampf into a comic book instead of an actual written screed. Then, the ovens of Auschwitz and the human lampshades would be all the rage and cool of kitsch. Silly me, for not understanding that close-ups of sawing off someone's arms and dogs chowing down on a six-year-old girl are so much high culture because they were in a comic book first. Idiocy. And, oh, it's a disgusting comic book that TIME Magazine liked. Therefore, it must be the end all, be all. Tell it to Ariel Sharon, who knew something about the "truth" and "accuracy" of TIME. Oh, wait, I'm assuming something really big here: that you "Watchmen" ignoramuses actually know who Ariel Sharon is or what his deal was with TIME. And that would be truly clueless.

Godwin's Law. She lost.

I also liked this:

Still, I've gotten many e-mails like these from parents, who attest that they thought this was a superhero movie and that their kids have been bombarded with the marketing for this grotesque movie:

Debbie,

I cannot recall how I got pointed to your review of Watchmen, but thank you for your review! Ever since the trailers came out my son, 15 1/2 wanted to see the movie. No he has not read the novel or comics, but something about this movie made me research it more. Let's just say I had a bad feeling. I greatly appreciate your detailed review of this movie. We are not going to see this movie and it became a great teaching point.

Michael

Uh-huh, not marketed to kids, right? His son just found out about the movie and wants to go see it . . . by accident?

Shocking...a fifteen and a half year old kid saw ads for Watchmen. Why, that is damning. She has me there. If they were seriously not marketing to children (or in this case teens), they would not advertise on television EVER. When your best defense is that there were ads on American Idol? You are not winning the argument. Idol has a very large segment of viewers seventeen on up. I would advertise my 'R' rated films there as well. Kids seeing ads is not the same thing as "marketing to kids."

*sigh*

Edited by Nezpop

"You know...not EVERY story has to be interesting." -Gibby

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Whatsherface wrote:

: . . . grisly is grisly, and gratuitous, graphic violence serves no positive or useful purpose in our society, even if you read it first in a comic book.

Gee, now I wanna know what she thought of The Passion of the Christ. (Seriously, I do. Maybe she didn't like that either. But, if so, it would be nice to hear her say so out loud.)


"Sympathy must precede belligerence. First I must understand the other, as it were, from the inside; then I can critique it from the outside. So many people skip right to the latter." -- Steven D. Greydanus
Now blogging at Patheos.com. I can also still be found at Facebook, Twitter and Flickr. See also my film journal.

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Please folks, the more we give time to paying attention to her, the more she thrives. She's like a supervillain that way.

Or Rush Limbaugh. :)

But man...she's like the blonde, banal face of evil. ;) (I base this on having watched her be interviewed and discuss politics, pop culture and so on)


"You know...not EVERY story has to be interesting." -Gibby

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Moving right along ... my review.

Heh. When you called it the anti-Spirit, I was expecting a much more positive review. :)

Edited by Nezpop

"You know...not EVERY story has to be interesting." -Gibby

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