39 replies to this topic

[draper]

It is my latent obsessive compulsiveness that keeps me returning to this list. It occurred to me over the weekend that while Garth Brooks made the list. Steve Earle did not, neither did Lyle Lovett or Dwight Yoakam. These three made records in the 80's that crossed over genre's and changed what was possible in mainstream country.

I'm sure this is my own prejudice showing but the country artists represented are; Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, Dolly Parton, Willie Nelson, Lucinda William, Hank Williams and.........Garth Brooks?

Every so often I realize how out of step I am.

[Kyle]

It is my latent obsessive compulsiveness that keeps me returning to this list. It occurred to me over the weekend that while Garth Brooks made the list. Steve Earle did not, neither did Lyle Lovett or Dwight Yoakam. These three made records in the 80's that crossed over genre's and changed what was possible in mainstream country.

I'm sure this is my own prejudice showing but the country artists represented are; Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, Dolly Parton, Willie Nelson, Lucinda William, Hank Williams and.........Garth Brooks?

Every so often I realize how out of step I am.

My guess is this. Time being a populist magazine and mainstream country being populist as well decided to throw that constituancy a bone by selecting one huge mainstream act and chose Garth Brooks. The album itself is very enjoyable and probably the best in his catalouge. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think it is one of the best 100 albums of all-time, but I could see how it could get included.

[TexasSara]

I agree with what was said about the exclusion of independent artists and the inclusion of compilations especially in the 2000s category, but overall, I'm not too unhappy with the list in general.

There were some artists included I don't normally see on best of lists (except in guitar magazines) such as AC/DC and Metallica. The Metallica cd I would have chosen is the Black Album instead of Master of Puppets. The John Lennon solo album I would have chosen is Imagine instead of the eponymous one. I like Radiohead's OK Computer a lot, but I'm not a huge fan of Kid A. I would have liked to see XTC's Skylarking in the 80s list as someone mentioned earlier. The Miseducation of Lauren Hill is not listed in the 1990s, which is interesting because I've seen it listed in so many other places, and I've always thought that cd was overrated.

The list of 2000s disappoints me because 4 of the 9 cds listed were not 2000 recordings. There has been more great music that has been recorded in the 2000s than 3 hip-hop cds and 2 alternative ones.

[Holy Moly!]

Oh, incidentally: what does it mean that of the "100 best albums of all time", all are from north america or western europe?

I think it means that Time Magazine is purchased by English-speaking readers who probably aren't all that familiar with Fela Kuti and Thomas Mapfumo. What do you expect them to do?

Time being the kind of publication that it is. I would expect that they do exactly what they did: reassure their readership that the best music in history is the same MOR stuff they already listen to.

What does it mean that we ignore and denigrate the cultural contributions of the global south in this way? What implications does it have for our awareness of global social and political issues? How does it contribute to the way we allow ourselves to view people of the developing world as less than human? Music crit has the potential to expand horizons, encourage a global view of citizenship. Canons which exclude representatives of the majority of the world's population perpetuate arrogant, insular small-minded attitudes.

Anyway, Fela usually sings in english, so that's no excuse.

Edited by Holy Moly!, 20 November 2006 - 04:19 PM.

[Andy Whitman]

Time being the kind of publication that it is. I would expect that they do exactly what they did: reassure their readership that the best music in history is the same MOR stuff they already listen to.

What does it mean that we ignore and denigrate the cultural contributions of the global south in this way? What implications does it have for our awareness of global social and political issues? How does it contribute to the way we allow ourselves to view people of the developing world as less than human? Music crit has the potential to expand horizons, encourage a global view of citizenship. Canons which exclude representatives of the majority of the world's population perpetuate arrogant, insular small-minded attitudes.

Anyway, Fela usually sings in english, so that's no excuse.

Time is a mainstream news magazine with a subscriber base in the millions, and the people who read it speak English. That means that, by and large, its readership resides primarily in the United States, with a much smaller readership in places like the U.K., Australia, and New Zealand. Furthermore, its readership is no doubt composed of people who care deeply about music, and people who don't care at all.

To complain that this list didn't include any contributions from "the global south" is like complaining that Geoge W. Bush didn't deliver his State of the Union Address in Mandarin. Magazines, just like Presidents, cater to their constituencies. I think it's ridiculous to read "denigration" and "perpetuating arrogant, insular, small-minded attitudes" into this, and I, for one, would be thrilled if a few thousand people read that list and decided to check out Robert Johnson or John Coltrane because of it.

[Holy Moly!]

I maintain that music writers have greater responsibilities than pandering to the narrow interests of their audience. For what it's worth, I'll criticize TIME's journalism for similar reasons; they spend too much time on vapid celebrity news and fluff pieces while avoiding meaningful discussion of the politics of the developing world--which affects us all, regardless of whether we care about it.

Edited by Holy Moly!, 20 November 2006 - 08:31 PM.

[draper]

What is the "global south"?


As Josh Tyrangiel and Alan Light have said
" we chose the albums for the All-TIME 100. ... and then everyone complained because there was no Pink Floyd on it. And that's exactly how it should be. We hope you'll treat the All-TIME 100 as a great musical parlor game."

Perhaps what we need is a "100 Albums You Should Know By Heart" thread, or even "100 Artists you should be aware of"

Edited by mumbleypeg, 20 November 2006 - 09:23 PM.

[Holy Moly!]

Google: "The global south is a term for countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America. Generally thought of as the group of impoverished countries that are mostly in the Southern Hemisphere. A preferred term for “Third World” or “developing” countries."


There is a huge difference between overlooking Pink Floyd and overlooking the continents that hold the majority of the world's population. One is a subjective question of taste appropriate for parlor games, the other is a massive oversight that reflects dangerous attitudes and should call the entire list-making enterprise into question.

Edited by Holy Moly!, 20 November 2006 - 09:59 PM.

[Anders]

What does it mean that we ignore and denigrate the cultural contributions of the global south in this way? What implications does it have for our awareness of global social and political issues? How does it contribute to the way we allow ourselves to view people of the developing world as less than human? Music crit has the potential to expand horizons, encourage a global view of citizenship. Canons which exclude representatives of the majority of the world's population perpetuate arrogant, insular small-minded attitudes.

Perhaps, but the fact is that I would be extremely suspect of a list from TIME that DID include music from around the globe, not because I don't think that there is worthy music being made in the rest of the world, but because a] I am suspect of the TIME magazine music journalists having listened to enough world music to make a sound judgement, and b] I am suspect of westerners declaring themselves experts on the art forms of other cultures.

I suppose this is a pet peeve that I have; there is an entire subset of people who will praise a foreign film or world music CD, when I sometimes suspect that they didn't even understand it. Part of what they love is the otherness, the exotic. Myself, I have never lived in a non-North American culture, so I don't know if what I would claim as "greatness" is what people from the global south or eastern Europe would consider greatness. It seems presumptious. Fetishizing THE OTHER is not a better option than ignoring it.

Now, there are a couple of solutions to this problem. The first is to call into question the entire notion of canons at all, which I don't think is particularly helpful, especially as we become overwhelmed with "texts" I need some guidance to point me to what to read, watch, and listen to. The second solution is for me to FIRST become more educated in other cultures, learn other languages, etc. And the final solution is to avoid the presumption by titling my/TIME's list as "100 Best Albums of ALL TIME" and instead choose a more accurate title, like "100 Best English Language, Professionally Recorded, Popular Music Albums of All Time".

I think it's ridiculous to read "denigration" and "perpetuating arrogant, insular, small-minded attitudes" into this, and I, for one, would be thrilled if a few thousand people read that list and decided to check out Robert Johnson or John Coltrane because of it.

I agree with Andy on this point.

Google: "The global south is a term for countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America. Generally thought of as the group of impoverished countries that are mostly in the Southern Hemisphere. A preferred term for “Third World” or “developing” countries."

I never knew that. Thank you.

There is a huge difference between overlooking Pink Floyd and overlooking the continents that hold the majority of the world's population. One is a subjective question of taste appropriate for parlor games, the other is a massive oversight that reflects dangerous attitudes and should call the entire list-making enterprise into question.

Ok, I see you choose my first option.

[MattP]

What? No Hanson? No NKOTB?

I thumb my nose at you Time...

[TexasSara]

What? No Hanson? No NKOTB?

I think this would be the list for those groups.

[Holy Moly!]

Fetishizing THE OTHER is not a better option than ignoring it.

Well, the problem of fetishization of the other is real and complex. I know Edward Said points out that the "inclusion" mindset where the westerner presumes to offer the marginalized a spot in the canon is as much a legacy of colonialism as "exclusion". But we also have to understand that fetishization is a primary way many americans interact with all types of music; fetishizing Bob Dylan's "authenticity" or whatever. And if, for example, more people listened to Iraqi pop music, or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, or whoever, even if there was an element of fetishization of the other in their enjoyment of it, recognizing the cultural contributions of these places and thus recognizing their humanity might make us less likely to bomb the islamic world into oblivion.

Now, there are a couple of solutions to this problem. The first is to call into question the entire notion of canons at all, which I don't think is particularly helpful, especially as we become overwhelmed with "texts" I need some guidance to point me to what to read, watch, and listen to. The second solution is for me to FIRST become more educated in other cultures, learn other languages, etc. And the final solution is to avoid the presumption by titling my/TIME's list as "100 Best Albums of ALL TIME" and instead choose a more accurate title, like "100 Best English Language, Professionally Recorded, Popular Music Albums of All Time".

Calling into question the notion of authoritative canons doesn't mean we can't have lists to guide us to some of the more interesting destinations. Such lists simply have to acknowledge the writer's subject position.

Edited by Holy Moly!, 21 November 2006 - 02:31 PM.

[TheTrout]

While we're discussing lists: http://www.rtxarchive.com/archive/articles/wire175.html.

I think I own two albums from it, although there are a few more on my want list.

[Anders]

Well, the problem of fetishization of the other is real and complex. I know Edward Said points out that the "inclusion" mindset where the westerner presumes to offer the marginalized a spot in the canon is as much a legacy of colonialism as "exclusion". But we also have to understand that fetishization is a primary way many americans interact with all types of music; fetishizing Bob Dylan's "authenticity" or whatever. And if, for example, more people listened to Iraqi pop music, or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, or whoever, even if there was an element of fetishization of the other in their enjoyment of it, recognizing the cultural contributions of these places and thus recognizing their humanity might make us less likely to bomb the islamic world into oblivion.



Calling into question the notion of authoritative canons doesn't mean we can't have lists to guide us to some of the more interesting destinations. Such lists simply have to acknowledge the writer's subject position.

This seems reasonable enough. Perhaps you are calling for a combination of my first and third option?

Oh, and I did have Said in mind when I commented on the problem of fetishization. You understand.

[Christian]

Kyle, on 18 November 2006 - 08:50 AM, said:

the only populist album that might be worthy (of the top of my head) is Wilco's Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. It has the songs and the backstory - a winning combination for remaining in collective memory.

draper, on 18 November 2006 - 09:50 AM, said:

I would also choose Yankee Hotel Foxtrot.

Jeff Rioux, on 20 November 2006 - 09:50 AM, said:

I agree that Yankee Hotel Foxtrot is a good choice there.

Wilco is at Wolf Trap tonight. I'm home, listening to baseball, and wondering if I've ever heard this album. I'm thinking hard about this because the album is one of Amazon's $5 mp3s this month. Something tells me I tried the album and didn't care for it, but something ELSE is telling me that I'm not remembering correctly.

Edited by Christian, 17 July 2012 - 07:52 PM.

[Christian]

Christian, on 17 July 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Kyle, on 18 November 2006 - 08:50 AM, said:

the only populist album that might be worthy (of the top of my head) is Wilco's Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. It has the songs and the backstory - a winning combination for remaining in collective memory.

draper, on 18 November 2006 - 09:50 AM, said:

I would also choose Yankee Hotel Foxtrot.

Jeff Rioux, on 20 November 2006 - 09:50 AM, said:

I agree that Yankee Hotel Foxtrot is a good choice there.

Wilco is at Wolf Trap tonight. I'm home, listening to baseball, and wondering if I've ever heard this album. I'm thinking hard about this because the album is one of Amazon's $5 mp3s this month. Something tells me I tried the album and didn't care for it, but something ELSE is telling me that I'm not remembering correctly.

Well. One of the 100 best albums of all time? THAT??

I'm happy for those of you who adore the album. As for myself, I'm glad I didn't spend $5 on it.

[Hugues]

I've been saying several times here that Summerteeth IS one of those, not Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. That latter made some buzz for reasons that escape my listener's understanding. Only "Jesus etc" appears as a great song to me. Even mysterious, that song, when you think of lines like "tall buildings shake" repeated several times in the chorus, whereas the album was set to release in 2001, september 11 (and delayed by Warner, a famous chapter now in the band's story).

Since I was a FAN of Summerteeth released previously in 1999, I was of those who downloaded YHF before the actual release, in the end of 2001. I was supporting the band offering their own songs from the net. I was expecting a lot of the new album, so much that I was wrong all the way, disappointed and overrating it at once. I thought I was a fan of the band, and actually Tweedy still did impress me at times with his songwriting and the beautiful voice he had then, but I'm a fan of an album: Summerteeth. Summerteeth, Summerteeth, Summerteeth. Song after song, it's an endlessly enjoyable album, a deeply moving masterpiece.

Retrospectively, big thanks to the late Jay Bennett for his keyboards work (he also wrote "My Darling"). There was that famous magic in the band: Tweedy, Bennett, Stirratt, Coomer. Tweedy was keeping Bennett from being too light, and Bennett keeping Tweedy from being too dry.

Edited by Hugues, 25 July 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[Greg P]

Hugues, on 25 July 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

I've been saying several times here that Summerteeth IS one of those, not Yankee Hotel Foxtrot.

I agree with this assessment. It doesn't have the backstory, the desperation or the same complex degree of deconstruction, but song for song it's probably their strongest album. It has really held up nicely too.

[Andy Whitman]

Greg P, on 25 July 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Hugues, on 25 July 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

I've been saying several times here that Summerteeth IS one of those, not Yankee Hotel Foxtrot.

I agree with this assessment. It doesn't have the backstory, the desperation or the same complex degree of deconstruction, but song for song it's probably their strongest album. It has really held up nicely too.

I agree as well. In retrospect, I think the reputation of YHF was artificially inflated by the backstory. It's a music journalist's dream scenario: critically acclaimed but commercially unsuccessful band gets pressured to deliver a more commercial album, sticks to their guns, writes and records the album their way, even after being dropped by the label, and emerges with a masterpiece. There's only one problem: it's not a masterpiece.

There are moments of genius on YHF ("Jesus, Etc.," "Ashes of American Flags"), but it's a wildly uneven album, Summerteeth is very strong from start to finish. I miss Jay Bennett. In the struggle for the soul of the band, it turned out that there was only room for one massive ego in the studio. But he kept Tweedy's ponderousness in check.

Edited by Andy Whitman, 25 July 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Jason Panella]

Andy Whitman, on 25 July 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

I agree as well. In retrospect, I think the reputation of YHF was artificially inflated by the backstory. It's a music journalist's dream scenario: critically acclaimed but commercially unsuccessful band gets pressured to deliver a more commercial album, sticks to their guns, writes and records the album their way, even after being dropped by the label, and emerges with a masterpiece. There's only one problem: it's not a masterpiece.

There are moments of genius on YHF ("Jesus, Etc.," "Ashes of American Flags"), but it's a wildly uneven album, Summerteeth is very strong from start to finish. I miss Jay Bennett. In the struggle for the soul of the band, it turned out that there was only room for one massive ego in the studio. But he kept Tweedy's ponderousness in check.

Also chiming in to agree. I've been a fan of the band since the late '90s, and was madly in love with YHF when it was released. I still like the album a lot, but as you all have said, it's really uneven. (My favorite on the album: "Pot Kettle Black"). Still, as the years have gone by, I've come to value the album's b-sides and alternate song versions more. Man, I miss Jay.