Arts and Faith: Gran Torino - Arts and Faith

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Gran Torino clint eastwood is back ... as dirty harry?

#21 User is offline   Nezpop 

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 08:42 AM

QUOTE (Overstreet @ Dec 11 2008, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mike D'Angelo on Twitter:

QUOTE
Never have I seen a film as blatantly stupid as GRAN TORINO taken so seriously by so many non-idiots.




Isn't there a law requiring at least one critic must proclaim a movie empty/stupid/etc if many critics are praising the movie? I mean, didn't the LotR flicks get the same treatment? And the Dark Knight? smile.gif

#22 User is offline   Christian 

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 11:02 AM

QUOTE (Nezpop @ Dec 12 2008, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Overstreet @ Dec 11 2008, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mike D'Angelo on Twitter:

QUOTE
Never have I seen a film as blatantly stupid as GRAN TORINO taken so seriously by so many non-idiots.




Isn't there a law requiring at least one critic must proclaim a movie empty/stupid/etc if many critics are praising the movie? I mean, didn't the LotR flicks get the same treatment? And the Dark Knight? smile.gif


No law, but when the praisers are getting all the attention for a movie that many others find absolutely insufferable, the opposition tends to RAISE ITS VOICE!

As I've posted elsewhere at A&F, I think I’m in the opposition camp, but didn’t watch the movie seriously/closely enough to have a fully informed opinion of it. I’ll try again soon. I did note that Joe Morgenstern’s glowing review this morning includes a reference to nonprofessional actors who aren’t Eastwood’s equal, and I’m thinking it was those performers who recited so many of the poorly spoken lines in the film.

As for Eastwood, his persona comes through in this character, and he’s instantly appealing. I’m not sure the appeal holds up throughout the movie, because given that I was only half-watching, I lost interest in the movie as it went along. Again, might have to revise that, but scenes of Eastwood socializing with his Asian neighbors came across as stilted to me.

This post has been edited by Christian: 12 December 2008 - 11:02 AM


#23 User is offline   Peter T Chattaway 

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 08:11 PM

The film came out today in limited release, yes? So I might as well post the PM I sent Nick, about the "twist ending":



#24 User is offline   M. Leary 

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 11:08 AM

Hoffman on Eastwood:

QUOTE
Hoffman fell silent. “Gran Torino” is emotional, and he was clearly affected by the film. “I still get wide-eyed,” he said. “It’s true that I’ve made a lot of movies, and I know there’s a microphone over there and a camera back there, but when you see something great, you lose all that. I’m sitting forward, and I’m being moved, and I have no idea how he did it. I don’t know Clint Eastwood, but what’s amazing is that you have the sense that he’s doing exactly what he wants to be doing. He’s so committed. In this film, he keeps the action going, and the people don’t ever behave against their true nature. That’s what I look for in my work: when a writer can deftly describe the human experience in a way that you didn’t think could even be put into words. That doesn’t happen often, but it gives me something to play inside. Too much of the time our culture fears subtlety. They really want to make sure you get it. And when subtlety is lost, I get upset.”


#25 User is offline   Peter T Chattaway 

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:13 PM

MLeary wrote:
: Hoffman on Eastwood:

Dustin?

[ checks link ]

Ah, Philip Seymour.

Any other Hoffmans currently busy in movieland?

#26 User is offline   Christian 

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:28 PM

Phillip Seymour Hoffman thinks “Gran Torino” is subtle? SUBTLE??!!

I think I just lost respect for the guy.

OK, I think he’s saying that Eastwood’s performance is subtle. I might be able to buy that. Might be able to.


#27 User is offline   Nick Alexander 

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE (Peter T Chattaway @ Dec 22 2008, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Any other Hoffmans currently busy in movieland?
David Hassle-HOFF, the MAN. smile.gif


#28 User is offline   Christian 

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:50 PM

Theological question about the movie for Steven. This is a can of worms, and I’m sure you can give a long explanation. But I’m looking for something succinct and to the point in terms of this particular film. Looking over my question, now that I’ve written it below, I’m hoping that your answer is shorter than my question! smile.gif

What are we to make of Eastwood’s character’s confession to the priest? He hasn’t been to confession for decades, we’re told, and when he goes, he comes up with THREE things to confess. My wife scoffed and spat out the line about why a priest has such power to forgive sins. That didn’t trouble me. I mean, it DOES trouble me, but I sort of understand the “why/how” of it in terms of the priest’s authority. Sort of. What I don’t get is the whether only the confessed sins are forgiven, or if confession entails a forgiveness of even unspoken sins, with the priests knowing that people can’t/don’t remember all their sins when they come to confession, and that, perhaps, the confessed sins are viewed as representative of the whole?

UPDATE: I have received a reply from a non-Steven source offline. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Christian: 22 December 2008 - 05:12 PM


#29 User is offline   Christian 

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 10:41 AM

OK, I rewatched it and thought it was OK, but not nearly as good a film as most critics are saying. When I sat down to write something, this is what came out. I had a hard time putting into words why the film felt like a letdown, so I gave it as much credit as I could for what it did well. I don't think I'm a Gran Torino hater, but I'm not much of a fan either.

BTW, there's a superfluous "so" in one sentence, and my suggested title got turned around in a way that doesn't make much sense to me. But those things ain't gonna change at this point; no one's in the office today, obviously.

#30 User is offline   Darrel Manson 

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 08:22 PM

It seems strange to describe this film as fun, but it was. Walt's blatant prejudice was a hoot. He's the spawn of a gene splicing cloning Dirty Harry and Archie Bunker. But then we are given a clue as to how his words are at times (but certainly not always) endearments. As to whether the performance is subtle, I'll just reference the overstated cruciform position after Walt is killed (complete with blood in his hands).

I suppose the thing that I don't quite get is that given the sin in his confession that has haunted him his whole life, that he seems to stiff his son in the will.

#31 User is offline   Overstreet 

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 01:12 PM

Victor Morton is not impressed.

Here's his blog about it.

And his Twitter on it: "GRAN TORINO -- Camp is not dead. Funniest movie of year"


#32 User is offline   vjmorton 

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE (Overstreet @ Jan 3 2009, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Victor Morton is not impressed.

Here's his blog about it.

And his Twitter on it: "GRAN TORINO -- Camp is not dead. Funniest movie of year"


I hope to write in more detail later tonight, but I was impressed -- in a sense. I thoroughly enjoyed myself laughing at one of the worst screenplays I've ever seen and one of the worst performances by a professional actor ... rrrrrrr ... I've ever seen.

#33 User is offline   vjmorton 

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 03:52 PM

QUOTE (Christian @ Dec 22 2008, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Phillip Seymour Hoffman thinks “Gran Torino” is subtle? SUBTLE??!!

I think I just lost respect for the guy.

OK, I think he’s saying that Eastwood’s performance is subtle. I might be able to buy that. Might be able to.


Actually no, that's even worse. Eastwood's performance is the most unsubtle thing in the movie.

In the first like 30 seconds, you see a teen at a funeral with a pierced bellybutton, cut to Eastwood, lip curled and growling "rrrrrrrr." And then goes on in the same note, throughout the soon-to-be-classic camp lines: "let's get some good gook food"; "you're wrong eggroll"; "I'm closer to these slopes than my own family"; "(rrrrrr) get off my lawn (rrrrrrrrr)"; "you're just an overeducated 27-year-old virgin (rrrrrrrr) who likes to hold superstitious old ladies hands and promise them eternity."

Eastwood is and always has been a presence, an icon, a muthos. But he cannot, in the traditional stagecraft sense, act. And his trying here is REEFER MADNESS level mad. Carroll O'Connor (and his scriptwriters) at least knew how to make bigoted lines from a bigot halfway believable.

#34 User is offline   Denny Wayman 

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 12:13 AM

I have been an Eastwood fan for years - I think this is one of his best. I put it up there with UNFORGIVEN with a better spiritual message.

Here is our review.

Denny

#35 User is offline   Ron Reed 

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 02:34 AM

Before I read the thread...
Apologies in advance to those who have praised elements that I'm about to pan. I'm not meaning to pick any fights, or belittle a film I have considerable affectin for....
But...

If I were running a screenwriting program, and GRAN TORINO was submitted by someone applying for admission, I'd be very excited. "It's a mess, but I love what the guy's going for. Tons of potential." If this script was submitted by someone as their graduating project, I'd flunk them.

I'm fascinated by the same themes that fascinate this guy (and Clint Eastwood) - violence and non-violence, revenge and forgiveness, justice, sacrifice. In fact, with respect to the last on the list, I'd be very surprised if the screenwriter isn't a Christian.

But the script is so flawed, so amateur in execution, I truly can't believe it got made without extensive rewrites. Honestly, the whole story it tells is just fine. But the telling of that story has every beginner weakness there is. Going back to my imaginary screenwriting program, you really could use this film to illustrate a very long list of bad (or weak, or inexperienced) screenwriting gaffs. We see something in action, and then it's spelled out for us in on-the-nose, first level dialogue. The story lurches forward erratically. Characters speak lines that evoke audible responses from the audience, but none at all from the people in the scene (I'm thinking of Clint wandering around the neighbours' place at the barbecue, insuliting them out loud, and getting no reaction whatsoever - does no one speak any English at all?). Then he heads upstairs to spit blood into the sink (an endlessly repeated motif that doesn't build, just repeats and goes nowhere at all) and splash water on his face, and remark (to himself, to us) that he has more in common with these people than with his own family - only we haven't seen that at all in the events, the dramatic action: all we see is his alienness from this odd culture, his incomprehension, and his insults. Again and again we are told what the writer wants to convey, but rarely has he actually succeeded in actually showing it happening. Either that, or he successfully shows us something, and then goeas ahead and reiterates it.

Interesting characters - the young priest, for instance - have no character arc whatsoever: he is the same in every scene. Until all of a sudden he says he isn't, that he's changed, he's pissed off: only, there's no change in his behaviour, no consequence to his expressed change, no shift in the story line. There's a nifty reversal when the young priest reveals that he works with these gangs, and knows them: a shocker, coming from the baby-faced, freckled young fellow. Only there's no reaction to the disclosure, and the potentially interesting reversal isn't followed through with. It leads to nothing. If a domino falls and doesn't knock over another domino, does anybody care?

Scenes happen where nothing happens - and then we're told what was supposed to have happened, what the writer meant the scene to accomplish. Characters are convinced, their minds changed, by nothing that was said or done in the scene: it's like the writer knows that he wants the story to have a reversal, that he wants a character to have an insight or be brought to a change or a decision, but he simply lacks the ability to write the dialogue or create the dramatic action that motivate or even demonstrate the change. The characters have a little chat, then one of them declares that he's changed his mind, or made the decision. Clint's character delivers continual asides to no one at all, that spell out what he's thinking - things that are perfectly obvious without being spoken. Sometimes the un-PC talk is bracing, right on the money: more often it's just unconvincing, or overstays its welcome, or rings false. And it doesn't build or develop: it doesn't go anywhere. We get the priest in every second scene, playing exactly the same actions, filling exactly the same dramatic function over and over, until suddenly he's forgotten for half an hour, then suddenly pops back into the story.

Enough already. I'm ranting. That wasn't really my intent: it's just, I didn't want to simply say the screenwriting was flawed without being specific.

The writing reminds me of the performance by the neighbour girl. Her essential quality is wonderful - fiesty, fearless, smart, energetic. But her actual acting is very awkward indeed - she brings some of the most unconvincing line readings I've ever heard on a screen. Tremendous potential, but boy does she need some seasoning, experience, craft. Just like the screenwriter.

Okay, I think I've made my perception clear. So I am utterly gobsmacked, dumbfounded, perplexed, baffled to read...

Village Voice: "a generally superb script by newcomer Nick Schenk"

L.A. Tmes, Patrick Goldstein: "The script was so well crafted and understated (and the credits went by so fast) that after seeing the picture, I immediately called Bill Gerber, one of the film's producers, to find out which one of the many A-list screenwriters who must always be knocking down Eastwood's door had penned the story."

Or about Eastwood's occasionally wonderful, but more often caricatured, almost campy performance, Peter Travers of Rolling Stone writes: "But an Oscar for acting? Not yet. Get busy, Academy." About the neighbour girl, "the wonderful Ahney Her." Well, sort of wonderful, but also very amateur. But we've been over that.

Of all the reviewers I've read so far, only Stephanie Zacharek seems to notice the pervasive amateur quality of the screenplay, and the unconvincing elements in many scenes (Well, Ebert nods gently toward a few). Did nobody notice? It's like listening to the grade six band, with a third of the kids playing flat, another third playing sharp, and the ones who are in tune have no sense of rhythm. Any elementary school music teacher would hear the dissonance, but the newspaper's classical critic considers the performance "generally superb, wonderful," remarks that it's destined for the highest musical awards in the land, and suspects that the kids were members of the Berlin Philharmonic in disguise. Huh?

The teacher in me is very willing to see all the promise and good intentions and occasional successes in the film (and especially the screenplay). The spiritual themes hunter is happy to see those things play out here. Heck, I can recount the story-line and it SOUNDS like a swell movie. But, quite simply, it needed a major rewrite. by a skilled, experienced writer to actualize all that potential.

Seems to me a general love for Eastwood, and the idea of what an interesting entry this is into his revenge/violence oevre, have blinded critics to the film's immense weaknesses of craft.

I'll stop repeating myself now, and go read the thread.

This post has been edited by Ron Reed: 08 January 2009 - 02:49 AM


#36 User is offline   Ron Reed 

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 03:02 AM

Okay, Mick LaSalle saw the same movie I did. Whew. "a ham-fisted screenplay... A bizarre but endlessly amusing aspect of "Gran Torino" is that Walt insults everyone he speaks to, and yet most of the characters react to him as though they can't hear it..." LaSalle calls it a "mixed-up and weird, awful but awfully likable movie."

Yeah, that's what I meant.

I agree with Denny about the film's spiritual message (though I don't like to use the word message).
Chattaway nailed the echoes of Eastwood's other films: that's one source of the film's real pleasure. As LaSalle also says.
vjmorton is right about the unsubtleness of moments like the belly-button sneer. Just let the boys at Mystery Science Theatre get hold of this one...
Darrel's right, the over-the-top racial epithets are a hoot. Except when we tire of them, or they become completely unconvincing because of context.
And I, too, am baffled by Phil Hoffman's praise for the performance. Yes, it's got its moments, but overall... Clint needed a director.

But bottom line? "Awful, but awfully likable." That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

PS Anybody else notice that Walter's best friend was the Zodiac killer? Left the hardware biz, got himself a barber shop.

PPS Claudia Puig, USA Today: "Earnest..." -- most definitely -- "...and understated..." WHAT?!?!?!!!!

This post has been edited by Ron Reed: 08 January 2009 - 03:10 AM


#37 User is offline   Christian 

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:38 PM

QUOTE (Ron Reed @ Jan 8 2009, 03:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree with Denny about the film's spiritual message (though I don't like to use the word message).
Chattaway nailed the echoes of Eastwood's other films: that's one source of the film's real pleasure. As LaSalle also says.
vjmorton is right about the unsubtleness of moments like the belly-button sneer. Just let the boys at Mystery Science Theatre get hold of this one...
Darrel's right, the over-the-top racial epithets are a hoot. Except when we tire of them, or they become completely unconvincing because of context.
And I, too, am baffled by Phil Hoffman's praise for the performance. Yes, it's got its moments, but overall... Clint needed a director.


I feel left out! smile.gif

OK, we've all been focusing on Eastwood's performance, but as I noted in my review, I had real problems with the supporting cast, particularly the actor who played Thao. Nor did I understand why the character's cousin kept insisting that he join their gang, to the point of drive-by shooting! Did he simply feel disrespected? I had a tough time seeing Thao's situation as "hopeless," the way similar situations are portrayed in African-American-oriented films set in the inner city.

#38 User is offline   Peter T Chattaway 

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 12:53 PM

kenmorefield wishes the movie had had a talking dog, among other things.

Meanwhile, the film is on course to have the biggest wide opening of Clint Eastwood's career ($30 million, beating the $18.1 million record set by Space Cowboys eight years ago).

#39 User is online   Crow 

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 01:49 PM

QUOTE (Peter T Chattaway @ Jan 10 2009, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
kenmorefield wishes the movie had had a talking dog, among other things.

Or an orangutan. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Crow: 10 January 2009 - 02:52 PM


#40 User is offline   MattP 

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:44 PM

QUOTE (Ron Reed @ Jan 8 2009, 02:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If I were running a screenwriting program, and GRAN TORINO was submitted by someone applying for admission, I'd be very excited. "It's a mess, but I love what the guy's going for. Tons of potential." If this script was submitted by someone as their graduating project, I'd flunk them.

I'm with you Ron, 100%. Just got back from this and I'm astonished at the high praise it's getting from so many corners. I like the idea for the story, and I like the way the ending played out, but in almost every detail of the execution it felt awkward, stilted and amateur. The script was cliche-ridden (dropping a glass to shatter on the floor... really?) and full of on-the-nose dialogue, the acting was universally subpar (I liked Eastwood at times, but I'm pretty sure it was only because it was Eastwood. If another actor had delivered lines the way he did, or snarled ridiculously the way he did, I'm not sure I wouldn't even enjoyed it at times.) I even felt like the editing was poor, which is not something I normally pay much attention to.

I really didn't hate the movie, I was just bored by most of it, and perplexed at how the script had been greenlit in its current state and how most of the actors had been cast. But I have a feeling this is one of those movies I'll learn to dislike more and more as a result of all the undeserved glowing praise it's receiving.

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