[M. Dale Prins]

Given my personal predilections, at some point I'm going to make it to his dozen or so works that include handbells (most famously, I believe, "The Last Sleep of the Virgin"), but really, the best starting place is the best starting place. So, help.

Dale

[mrmando]

The Protecting Veil.

Best not start with The Whale, but it is entertaining, nonetheless.

[yank_eh]

A quote for you from a Jeremy Begbie interview, maybe stir up some conversation:

"JB: I think we need to be slightly careful about John Tavener. John Tavener is, of course, Orthodox with a capital “O.” But, it has to be said, his music only expresses a fairly narrow bandwidth of theology within Orthodoxy.

There’s much more to Orthodoxy than John Tavener. But you’re dead right, he’s not nearly trinitarian. I’ve been through that with him. He talks about how “the absolute simplicity of the one note is God.”

I think he’s just flat wrong on that, and I’ve argued that through with him. And I think the idea that complexity or multiplicity is evil or something to be shunned is nonsense, and the trinity denies it."

The entire interview is here

Do you all know Begbie? Is there a thread on him? If there isn't, there ought to be.

[Chashab]

A quote for you from a Jeremy Begbie interview, maybe stir up some conversation:

"JB: I think we need to be slightly careful about John Tavener. John Tavener is, of course, Orthodox with a capital “O.” But, it has to be said, his music only expresses a fairly narrow bandwidth of theology within Orthodoxy.

There’s much more to Orthodoxy than John Tavener. But you’re dead right, he’s not nearly trinitarian. I’ve been through that with him. He talks about how “the absolute simplicity of the one note is God.”

I think he’s just flat wrong on that, and I’ve argued that through with him. And I think the idea that complexity or multiplicity is evil or something to be shunned is nonsense, and the trinity denies it."

The entire interview is here

Do you all know Begbie? Is there a thread on him? If there isn't, there ought to be.

I know of Begbie and have a book of essays edited by him, which I've read some of. I see his name come up pretty regularly on websites and in books that I peruse.

I have a Taverner album with the Winchester Cathedral Choir called "Thunder Entered Her." "Her" being Mary. I like it, and listen to it particularly around Christmastime. I hadn't ever given much thought to his spirituality though; like some other "classical" musicians (Thinking of Handel off-hand), I always thought it possible he worked with Scriptural themes but wasn't a believer himself. Didn't bother me to when I listened to the album I have; there are a couple of really good pieces I think: The Lament of the Mother of God and God is with Us I really like.

[JoelBuursma]

(I've edited the title of this thread)

Interesting interview (and interesting that Tavener was at Trinity College!), but although Tavener apparent was orthdox (with a small "O") in the past, it looks like he may have left the Christian faith altogether.

I saw your recent post on Tavener at Jeffrey's blog, Alan, & I came over here & am glad I found this discussion. Thanks much for the links!

Earlier in this thread you mention The Veil of the Temple. I recently listened to that & it raised red flags for me. There were a number of things I would (admittedly ungraciously) refer to as "Gnostic garbage" in the words & the commentary. It got me wondering somewhat incredulously... has this guy been reading The Da Vinci Code??? (Using the climactic section of a major work to... criticize the Knights Templar? Who's next on Tavener's radar screen... Opus Dei and their alleged monks?) There are also comments about all religious practices being idolatry, to be progressed beyond (which is what he & his buddy are trying to do). That seems unorthodox virtually by definition. But I have to say, I actually laughed when I read the conductor's note that quoted performance notes (quoting from memory here) from Tavener, without any obvious relevance to the work, in which he "noted that Mary Magdalene embraced sacred nudity." Okaaaaaay. I guess they had to fit that in somehow, however awkwardly. So I was disappointed, although some of the music was wonderful.

BTW, one of his earlier works had a soprano duet that was I believe an ode of Sappho's, which is a bit off the beaten path as well.

I really love his smaller choral pieces, which are often in the Orthodox tradition, for example this. I could elaborate, but I won't unless someone wants me to. :-) But I distrust him these days.

[e2c]

Taverner has always struck me as something of a mystic, as opposed to being interested in Christianity per se. I can't give specifics, because the interviews that gave me that impression are over a decade old and not accessible to me now. (I pitched all my back issues of Gramophone magazine before a move in 2001 - no room, too heavy.)

There's something about some of his earlier texts and titles that gave me that impression, too - "Thunder Entered Her" being one of them. The text of the piece used at Princess Diana's funeral ("Song for Athene") is another.

I can't help wondering if he was mainly attracted to the aesthetics of the Orthodox church (very much including liturgical music)...

Edit: I found some quotes here, in an article on Tavener, Gorcki, Pärt and more (http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives/121302/121302t.htm ).

"We are living in an age that does not believe that sound is capable of putting us in touch with higher levels of reality. So I am out on a limb.”

“Music can soften men’s hearts. I feel that any future has to do with religions uniting -- and that music can do that.”

The article is titled "Spirituality," and it was publshed in 1993. The way in which both "spiritual" and "spirituality" were being used in the popular press at the time seemed very directly related to ideas of universalism (or "all things are equal"), some of the more prominent/popular aspects of the "New Age" phenom (or the marketing of it); Robert Bly's "iron john," the resurgence of interest in Jung via jospeh Campbell, etc. etc. etc.

It wouldn't surprise me if Tavener ultimately decided he was Hindu or Buddhist. The things he was talking about back in the early-mid 90s seem very much of a piece with certain kinds of mysticism practiced in both relgions, also (to some degree) with aspects of Sufi thought.

This post has been edited by nardis: 07 September 2006 - 09:58 PM

[JoelBuursma]

Edit: I found some quotes here, in an article on Tavener, Gorcki, Pärt and more (http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives/121302/121302t.htm ).

Good stuff! The last few names mentioned were new to me.

Really, there's something inherently populist about taking liturgy out of a church (and Eucharistic!) setting and slapping it onto a CD. (The idea is a cousin to the somewhat-recent fad of taking spirituality out of religion.) And we don't have to be talking about modern music: if you listen to Brahms' German Requiem, you are free to interpret it humanistically (e.g., "Death, where is thy sting" = "We had nice memories of the deceased"). And Bach's major choral works were concert pieces, not fit for performance in a church service. But, particularly with some religious traditions, it seems like you have to be a bit unorthodox to want to do this.

I can't help wondering if he was mainly attracted to the aesthetics of the Orthodox church (very much including liturgical music)...

Well, if I understand correctly, his method of handling harmonic progression (or, should I say, dynamic stasis instead of progression) mirrors the Orthodox theology of hypostasis. But I suppose the end result is still esthetics even if the source is theology.