92 replies to this topic

[Tyler]

I figured it out pretty early on, though it was still fun to see how all the pieces ended up fitting in.

Did it remind anyone else of

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The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari? (I've seen the original 1919 German one, as well as the one starring Doug Jones from 2005 that reused all the backgrounds from the German version. Apparently there's another one that was made in 1962, which I haven't seen.) Not sure if this really needed a spoiler tag, but if you've seen Caligari but not Shutter Island, I think the comparison would make it pretty easy to guess Shutter Island's twist.

[Ryan H.]

I enjoyed SHUTTER ISLAND. It's certainly one of the stronger genre exercises from recent years, and probably my personal favorite of the Scorsese output of the last decade. I think DiCaprio handles the material quite well indeed, and the film does a fairly good job of handling its twist, even if the twist is a bit on the predictable side. I definitely appreciated the use of classical music (I'm downloading the soundtrack as I write this).

Complaints? Well, I tend to think Scorsese edited the film too tightly, or rather, that he used too many edits. The film was just the right length, but there were many atmospheric shots that would have benefited from an extra second or two. I daresay some of the stranger imagery could have afforded even more Lynchian flair. The film never felt quite as unhinged and unsettled as it wanted to be.

Christian, on 20 February 2010 - 02:49 PM, said:

Yowzers! Am I wrong to think this movie will drop precipitously next weekend? The bigger the gross this weekend, the likelier the chances of a big drop, I guess, but I'll be really surprised if word of mouth on this film isn't at least somewhat negative. Whatever one thinks of the quality of the film, it's SUCH a downer, and I still can't believe women like it, although RJkolb has proved me wrong!

My fiancee really, really enjoyed it, and it also seemed that the other women at my screening were having a great time, and walked out with lots of enthusiastic chatter. Given what I'd heard about SHUTTER ISLAND, I actually expected it to be darker. Yes, the final reveal and ending is quite dark, but that kind of scene isn't entirely unanticipated. Regarding next weekend's box office, I suspect that there won't be such a sharp drop, and that word of mouth will carry this film to an admirable take. The film deserves it, too; it's pretty good.

[Persona]

A.O. Scott and Michael Phillips of At The Movies both gave it a thumbs down* last night, mostly on the basis that it is predictable and that they saw the "twist" coming from a mile away.

Is there some kind of an M. Night code of conduct to Shutter Island that I'm missing? I honestly didn't feel the "twist" was as important as the mood. In fact, dare I say, it didn't have a twist and that's a poor scale to measure it on.

* oops sorry, that would be "Skip It," as the thumbs are some kind of patent still held by Roger

Edited by Persona, 21 February 2010 - 12:40 PM.

[Ryan H.]

Persona, on 21 February 2010 - 12:02 PM, said:

Is there some kind of an M. Night code of conduct to Shutter Island that I'm missing? I honestly didn't feel the "twist" was as important as the mood.

Agreed. And while the central twist was a bit expected, I thought the final twist (included in the last scene) more than made it all worthwhile.

Edited by Ryan H., 21 February 2010 - 12:38 PM.

[Tyler]

Ryan H., on 21 February 2010 - 12:36 PM, said:

Persona, on 21 February 2010 - 12:02 PM, said:

Is there some kind of an M. Night code of conduct to Shutter Island that I'm missing? I honestly didn't feel the "twist" was as important as the mood.

Agreed. And while the central twist was a bit expected, I thought the final twist (included in the last scene) more than made it all worthwhile.

Do you mean

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that Teddy/Andrew wasn't really cured

or that

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they really did brain surgeries on the island?

[Ryan H.]

tyler1984, on 21 February 2010 - 01:09 PM, said:

Ryan H., on 21 February 2010 - 12:36 PM, said:

Persona, on 21 February 2010 - 12:02 PM, said:

Is there some kind of an M. Night code of conduct to Shutter Island that I'm missing? I honestly didn't feel the "twist" was as important as the mood.

Agreed. And while the central twist was a bit expected, I thought the final twist (included in the last scene) more than made it all worthwhile.

Do you mean

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that Teddy/Andrew wasn't really cured

or that

Spoiler

they really did brain surgeries on the island?

Neither. I mean the revelation that

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Teddy/Andrew *was* cured, but was going to pretend that he had regressed into insanity because he wanted to have the lobotomy done so he didn't have to live with his grief.

Brilliant final narrative maneuver.

[Tyler]

Ryan H., on 21 February 2010 - 01:26 PM, said:

tyler1984, on 21 February 2010 - 01:09 PM, said:

Ryan H., on 21 February 2010 - 12:36 PM, said:

Persona, on 21 February 2010 - 12:02 PM, said:

Is there some kind of an M. Night code of conduct to Shutter Island that I'm missing? I honestly didn't feel the "twist" was as important as the mood.

Agreed. And while the central twist was a bit expected, I thought the final twist (included in the last scene) more than made it all worthwhile.

Do you mean

Spoiler

that Teddy/Andrew wasn't really cured

or that

Spoiler

they really did brain surgeries on the island?

Neither. I mean the revelation that

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Teddy/Andrew *was* cured, but was going to pretend that he had regressed into insanity because he wanted to have the lobotomy done so he didn't have to live with his grief.

Brilliant final narrative maneuver.

Um, okay. How did you get to that conclusion?

[Persona]

That was the conclusion I got to as well. I've already forgotten the film though, so I can't remember why.

[Ryan H.]

tyler1984, on 21 February 2010 - 03:18 PM, said:

Ryan H., on 21 February 2010 - 01:26 PM, said:

mean the revelation that

Spoiler

Teddy/Andrew *was* cured, but was going to pretend that he had regressed into insanity because he wanted to have the lobotomy done so he didn't have to live with his grief.

Brilliant final narrative maneuver.

Um, okay. How did you get to that conclusion?

Three things.

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1. The nervous, suspicious look in Teddy/Andrew's eyes, which has been present throughout every moment in the film previous, was gone in that final scene. He was talking the talk, but his eyes were sad. He's given up the fictional role of the determined hero.
2. His line, "Is it better to die a good man than live a monster?" (The real tip-off.)
3. The docile, calm, and resigned way in which Teddy/Andrew moves to walk with the doctors towards his lobotomy.

Edited by Ryan H., 21 February 2010 - 04:20 PM.

[Tyler]

Persona, on 21 February 2010 - 03:29 PM, said:

That was the conclusion I got to as well. I've already forgotten the film though, so I can't remember why.

Spoiler

When they were in the lighthouse, Ben Kingsley said that Teddy/Andrew had a breakthrough followed by a relapse before, so I assumed that what was happening again at the end.

I guess I see how Ryan's interpretation could be right, just not that it necessarily has to be, unless there was something I missed.

[Ryan H.]

tyler1984, on 21 February 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:

Spoiler

When they were in the lighthouse, Ben Kingsley said that Teddy/Andrew had a breakthrough followed by a relapse before, so I assumed that what was happening again at the end.

The book ends with that simple suggestion, but they've changed the ending for the film in some key ways. For what it's worth, the screenwriter of SHUTTER ISLAND, Laeta Kalogridis, supports my interpretation of that last scene.

tyler1984, on 21 February 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:

I guess I see how Ryan's interpretation could be right, just not that it necessarily has to be, unless there was something I missed.

It doesn't have to be, but it sure makes a lot of sense. The line of dialogue that they give DiCaprio in that scene is a pretty heavy hint (the line isn't in the book).

Edited by Ryan H., 21 February 2010 - 04:17 PM.

[Nathaniel]

OMG, did anybody else read I Am the Cheese in junior high? This movie is that, only less edifying.

Ryan's interpretation of the final scene is persuasive, but it introduces even more questions, such as

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why would he choose to reject his mental breakthrough in favor of a lobotomy? Between "living like a monster" or "dying like a good man" which did he actually choose?

Edited by Nathaniel, 21 February 2010 - 05:44 PM.

[Peter T Chattaway]

Good point, Nate. The "monster" line is kind of perplexing, since the, um, deed that got the, um, person into that situation isn't really all that monstrous to begin with -- it's a RESPONSE to monstrosity, and a passionate, reflexive response at that. But perhaps we are supposed to think of everything that has happened in the interim as the "monstrosity". Perhaps what is "monstrous" is not the one (somewhat understandable) evil deed but the inability to live with that (somewhat understandable) deed and the lengths to which someone will go to avoid facing the fact that they committed that one single (and somewhat understandable) deed. In which case the character in question does seem to be going to even FURTHER lengths in the end.

[Ryan H.]

Well,

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while we can say his use of the term "monster" is a bit of an exaggeration to any outsider, it's probably describes precisely how he views himself. No matter how much someone tells him he shouldn't beat himself up about what he's done, he can't escape his own feelings of guilt, and will forever feel somewhat mangled inside. Those same feelings of guilt were enough to drive him to madness; surely they're enough to distort his view of himself.

Edited by Ryan H., 21 February 2010 - 07:03 PM.

[Nathaniel]

Ryan H., on 21 February 2010 - 07:03 PM, said:

Well,

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while we can say his use of the term "monster" is a bit of an exaggeration to any outsider, it's probably describes precisely how he views himself. No matter how much someone tells him he shouldn't beat himself up about what he's done, he can't escape his own feelings of guilt, and will forever feel somewhat mangled inside. Those same feelings of guilt were enough to drive him to madness; surely they're enough to distort his view of himself.

Okay, but

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why doesn't he just kill himself and "die like a good man"? How is living the life of a lobotomized mental patient the answer?

Edited by Nathaniel, 21 February 2010 - 07:24 PM.

[Persona]

Because it's available and convenient and others will do the work for him.

[Christian]

Peter T Chattaway, on 21 February 2010 - 06:39 PM, said:

Good point, Nate. The "monster" line is kind of perplexing, since the, um, deed that got the, um, person into that situation isn't really all that monstrous to begin with

It's not his act that he can't live with. It's his

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failure to prevent his wife's action that he can't live with

.

[Peter T Chattaway]

Christian, if your interpretation is correct, then what do you do with that final line of dialogue?

[Christian]

Peter T Chattaway, on 23 February 2010 - 02:21 AM, said:

Christian, if your interpretation is correct, then what do you do with that final line of dialogue?

Is the final line the

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"monster" v. "good man"

?

I may be thinking more of the book here, but in the movie, Ben Kingsley's character lays out the details that back my interpretation, IIRC. It comes in a torrent of quick dialogue

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explaining Teddy's condition

, so it might easily be overlooked. I don't have the script in front of me, of course, but I remember hearing the rationale laid out by the doctor.

[Peter T Chattaway]

Yes, that's the final line. I'm curious to know what the character who SAYS that line MEANS by it, if the "monstrosity" at issue is where you locate it.