47 replies to this topic

[Rich Kennedy]

MattPage, on 23 June 2010 - 02:46 PM, said:

Then they beat those pesky Dutch (with Rijkaard and was it Klinsman? sent off for spitting / reacting - that's from memory

EGADS MAN! I just caught this. Be careful what you say. Klinsman was a hero for Germany as captain and last time as coach. I like you. You're a good sort. I'm one of the few Dutch rooters who would give you a break on this. I don't remember the game BTW. I just know klinsman and am an admirer despite myself. Unless you are talking of their standing against Portugal in '06 with nine. Still though, klinsman wasn't wearing Orange.

Question Matt: Over here one hears of class distinctions with respect to sport in England. Football is the working class avocation. Rugby and Cricket for middle and upper middle classes. You play rugby. You enjoy football. Is explanation needed, or is this a misconception?

Edited by Rich Kennedy, 25 June 2010 - 06:31 PM.

[MattPage]

Can't believe you don't remember such an epic match!

Actually I did make a mistake, it was that other German 1990 World Cup winning centre forward turned marginally more successful coach Rudi Voller who got sent off for the Germans. But it was Rikaard that did the spitting. I don't think many Dutch would dispute such a clear fact

Highlights and slow mos are, of course, on YouTube.

As for the distinction, it's oft repeated, and I don't know if it ever was an accurate generalisation (I could believe this might have been true 100 years ago or so), but in my life time, football has always been the preserve of all (except perhaps the upper classes). Rugby Union is a little more favoured by the middle class, but still has a good following amongst the working class and my team mates were always a mix of both. And Rugby League was predominantly a working class thing, though today it's got a good following amongst both.

The middle / working class divide is VERY blurred these days anyway.

Matt

Edited by MattPage, 26 June 2010 - 03:48 AM.

[stu]

Rich Kennedy, on 25 June 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

You play rugby. You enjoy football.

English people 'enjoy' football in the same way that a heroin addict with a life-sapping ten year habit 'enjoys' their daily fix. They are rubbish at football.

The England team should be coached on a rota system by local Scout leaders from now on, and only players from the Conference and below should be allowed to play. Also, newspapers and TV stations should be banned from covering any of the games, and only relatively uninterested pensioners should be allowed to watch the games. These measures should be in place for about a decade, and by the end of the decade, I would hope, anything would be sort of 'reset', and we can start again.

That's my modest proposal for the future of English football.

[MattPage]

All those years of living with Matt obviously paid off then.

Was kind of sorry to see the US go out on Saturday, although glad to see an African team in the last 8 - keeps the tournament alive.

But England - what a disaster. We have been awful this tournament. We've not been so embarrassed since 1988's Euros.

3 poor group games and a thumping in the second round. The ridiculous disallowed goal might have made some difference, but the Germans would still have thumped us. They totally outclassed us. Here are some problems:

1 - The Premier League is overrated: we are not as good as we think we are.
2 - Our best player was clearly showing signs of fatigue
3 - Technically we are just not good enough
4 - Our manager failed in numerous ways
5 - We seek short term solutions where long term thinking is needed.

The key statistic for me is this:

Only 2,769 English coaches hold Uefa's B, A and Pro badges, its top qualifications.
Spain (Euro champions) has produced 23,995,
Germany 34,970

It's true that Italy (29,420) and France (17,588) had worse world cups than us, but those are blips on otherwise impressive records.

Those other countries have 10+ times the number of properly qualified coahes we have, reaching right down to grass roots level. There's one qualified coach for every 812 players in the UK, In Spain that it's one for every 17 player - or pretty much one for every team in the country.

Injuries didn't help us, but our defence was just awful today, AWFUL. It's our heaviest ever defeat in the World Cup finals or something. I'm totally humiliated to have thought we had a slim chance of winning the tournament 3 weeks ago.

I hope they keep Capello, and that he's honest enough to take a long look at himself and make the necessary changes. He has an excellent record so I hope he is able to adjust. International tournaments are different from day in day out club management and I think he has learnt that. Experience is the greatest teacher: I hope he will be a willing student.

Matt

[Rich Kennedy]

MattPage, on 28 June 2010 - 04:24 AM, said:

1 - The Premier League is overrated: we are not as good as we think we are.

From an outsider's POV, the Premier League is a destination for imported talent, rather than a susbstandard elite league. What is the ratio (this might require speculation) of foreign to domestic talent on the top levels? It seems to me that there are plenty of journeymen from the outside in the Premier League.

Yes, Italy showed a blip. OTOH, I remember when the French rose to power, it seemed they rose out of nowhere and much of France was unconcerned by European addict standards. Could it be that recent success is a 15 year blip?

[Hugues]

That disallowed goal for England remains quite irritating, and it'd be about time to allow videos to arbitrate matches, as it's already the case for some tennis tournaments. The football world is lead by too old entreaties. The rules must evolve. There's nothing more exasperating than arbitrament mistakes in sports.

[MattPage]

Quote

From an outsider's POV, the Premier League is a destination for imported talent, rather than a susbstandard elite league. What is the ratio (this might require speculation) of foreign to domestic talent on the top levels?

37% domestic apparently.

But my point is that really that very top level is above the best of the premier league. There have been various years that the Prem League sides have done well in the Champions League but not won it. Only once in my life time (or at least as far as I recall) has the world player of the year been a player for an Premier League side. It's a very strong league, but the best sides are not quite elite. And why do so few English players get drawn abroad?

Matt

[Rich Kennedy]

Hugues, on 28 June 2010 - 09:24 AM, said:

That disallowed goal for England remains quite irritating, and it'd be about time to allow videos to arbitrate matches, as it's already the case for some tennis tournaments. The football world is lead by too old entreaties. The rules must evolve. There's nothing more exasperating than arbitrament mistakes in sports.

There's a crane behind each goal for Pete's sake! It would seem to me that an official in a booth above the pitch could question a limited group of calls or no-calls. It appears to me that the worst officiating as the tourney has progressed, have come from goal calls and bad offsides calls. The U. S. goal that was dissallowed showed clutchingand grabbing as the cross came within range. If the outside official inserts himself into such calls, it will slow the game down badly. 10 minutes of stoppage anyone? What could be overruled from above would be goals declared that do not cross the line, or dissallowed goals that do. Also, bad offsides calls that lead to goals otherwise not scored had offsides legitimately been called.

What's the name of the head of FIFA. He seems hidebound. Maybe the time for rules changes at FIFA will be when he retires. Early in the tournament, the cry was over bad handball calls and phantom fouls. As the better teams have risen to the knockout stage, looking back, it is the issue of goals that seems to be more meaningfull. Are Americans the only ones complaining about lack of scoring (I don't, but I don't like obvious groaners of bad judgement like both goals in question on Sunday. One wouldn't really need to stop play to correct either of them. There is typicaly, what, 30 seconds to a minute of celebration after a successful shot? Plenty of time to overrule the obvious. The obvious is all I am talking about. Second guessing judgement calls is where time will slow to a crawl. That's what happens in American professional Football and to a lesser extent in NCAA Football.

Edited by Rich Kennedy, 28 June 2010 - 05:34 PM.

[MattPage]

FWIW whilst it's odd that football is one of the few sports these days not to embrace technology for key moments, I can't get too worked up about the disallowed goal. Firstly, these things happen. In the 1966 final the linesman called one in that wasn't and it won us the World Cup. What goes around comes around. Secondly the more fixated England chiefs get about that goal the less they will focus on the real failings at this tournament. There's no doubt we would have lost yesterday even if that goal had gone in. They were just better than us, and the more we moan about the goal the less likely we are to see any meaningful improvement in the years to come.

Matt

[Rich Kennedy]

I agree as far as it goes, Matt. I think back to the tie-that-wasn't-supposed-to-be against Slovenia. Maybe the disallowed goal was a makeup at the end of the game in exchange for not sending Dempsey off in the first minute!? There's a different game if ever! But the U.S. won the Group anyway. But that is too narrow a view of this. It isn't about the U.S., England, Mexico, or anyone single team, or game. It isn't even about the best teams winning last Sunday. Great games have been won by the lesser team. We have a saying here about the NFL, "on any given Sunday..." It is about easily correctable misjudgement.

Human error is and should always be part of the game (world class strikers put free kicks into the wall all the time, why can't a ref be allowed the same?). But groaners obvious to everyone but the decision maker? Instantaneous proof of a wrong goal call? That's different. Different issue for the Lords of English Football too. It's only about you guys in that instance and I hope something is done to correct the larger matter. Do we have to wait for Kaka to be red carded for an inadvertant handball (not an issue I'm arguing, but a likely gaffe in the next few games), or Suarez flagrantly offsides in the 91st minute on July 11 scoring the winner from Forlan against Germany or Argentina for those other than skeptical Americans, who OD on "going to the tape", to see the possible problem?

Edited by Rich Kennedy, 29 June 2010 - 12:51 AM.

[Darrel Manson]

Wow! Rich will be happy today.

Edited by Darrel Manson, 02 July 2010 - 10:51 AM.

[MattPage]

Yes great result. Good to have at least one European team in the semis. Hoping for Ghana tonight and Germany tomorrow. Can't see Paraguay troubling Spain though.

Matt

[Rich Kennedy]

Indeed I am. I kinda knew that Brazil would win. Watching the Uruguay game live after work I screamed and scared everyone in the house when ther announcers carually mentioned the previous outcome.

As for today, I knew as well as you can know these things, that Germany would win. Argentina had no real defense except for their excellent goalie. Germany would certainly solve that problem. I wasn't predicting 4-0 though. As I've told others here in Detroit, watching Germany is like watching the Von Schlieffen Plan unfold on the pitch.

Holland Germany final. Won't dare say who wins.

[Hugues]

The team that impressed me the most was Spain when they beat Portugal. Against Paraguay, though, I thought they'd do better. It's unfair that Muller will be off for the match against Spain. He didn't deserve that yellow card. When I tell you that arbitrament mistakes suck...

Holland should beat Uruguay. I'm not sure for Germany vs Spain. I think I still support Spain since their stunning performance against Portugal.

And I can see Spain win this World Cup.

[Rich Kennedy]

Hugues, on 04 July 2010 - 05:50 AM, said:

Holland should beat Uruguay. I'm not sure for Germany vs Spain. I think I still support Spain since their stunning performance against Portugal.

And I can see Spain win this World Cup.

There is an odd statistic I discovered in the WSJ's daily coverage. Euro Cup and Copa America current champions (Spain, Brazil this time) never succeed in the World Cup. Sometimes they don't even qualify. If Spain beats Germany, they will be the first to make the final game. This has nothing to do with my predictions.

Germany, for example, would madly rush Argentina's defense. Argentina's quick strikers and forward midfielders would counter, but by the time they were in range of the goal, all of Germany's back men would be crowding the space. Fastest defense I've seen in this tournament. Everybody knows how fast Germany's offense is. Spain has a better defense than Argentina, but Spain will be frustrated by their lack of one touch passing. German players seem adept at closing while one attempts to control the ball. I'm desperate for revenge for 1974 (the first final game I ever watched), but I'm not betting on it. I'm afraid that Holland's only chance will be one touch passing and the self confidence their rivalry with Germany gives them.

[Rich Kennedy]

Oh. YEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHH!

This was tough despite my declared loyalty. Uruguay was tied with the U.S. for second fave team in the Cup and Forlan is my favorite player in the tournament. The international feed showed the look on his face at Nederland's first goal. It only set the hook even more. I LOVE this guy. He never gives up. He's a killer with both feet. I hope he beats Spain with feeds to Suarez all day on Saturday.

But Sneijder has to get the Golden Boot. Oh. And the Cup.

EDIT: I'm just a fanboy kid. aren't I.

Edited by Rich Kennedy, 06 July 2010 - 04:18 PM.

[MattPage]

...and why not?


So the World Cup in which the South American teams were supposedly really dominating will have a European winner. I think I want the Germans to win tonight, preferably by 3+ goals.

Here's a good quiz question, however. If the Dutch do not win it, then who will be the only team to make it through the tournament unbeaten?

Matt

[Darrel Manson]

My pre-tourney pick to win was Spain, but I'd really like to see a Dutch/Deutsch final.

I've already picked Uruguay to lose the 3rd place game.

[MattPage]

Mine too until they lost to Switzerland...

I think I want the Dutch. I think...

Sometimes I can't really tell until the match starts.

Matt

[Rich Kennedy]

Oh I want the Dutch. I'm never sure if they can do it. I'm still reeling from yesterday.