45 replies to this topic

[mrmando]

He's starting a new church in Colorado Springs.

[MattPage]

Quote

Incorporation papers for a new church were filed three weeks ago, he said. Haggard previously indicated that he and his wife incorporated the church for accounting purposes

Help me out with the US terminology a bit here, what does this bit mean, cos it sounds to me like he's found some people he wants to "do church" with and as he has the means he has put his money into it. I'm not quite sure this is the same as him "starting a new church". But as I say I'm not really sure what AP are reporting has happened.

Matt

[Peter T Chattaway]

Links to the read-only threads on 'Ted Haggard' (Nov 2006 - Jan 2009), 'Ted Haggard and Jesus Camp' (Sep 2006) and 'Zach Kincaid lashes out at CT for Haggard focus' (Nov - Dec 2005).

Link to our ongoing thread on Jesus Camp (2006).

Edited by Peter T Chattaway, 02 June 2010 - 04:25 PM.

[Persona]

Quote

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) — Former megachurch pastor Ted Haggard, who fell from grace amid a sex scandal, is starting a new church in Colorado Springs.

I hate that phrase. You can't fall from grace, at least not the way that I understand it.

[Darrel Manson]

Persona, on 02 June 2010 - 05:19 PM, said:

Quote

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) — Former megachurch pastor Ted Haggard, who fell from grace amid a sex scandal, is starting a new church in Colorado Springs.

I hate that phrase. You can't fall from grace, at least not the way that I understand it.

He fell from human grace. I agree with you that one does not fall from the grace of God.

[SDG]

Darrel Manson, on 02 June 2010 - 08:06 PM, said:

Persona, on 02 June 2010 - 05:19 PM, said:

I hate that phrase. You can't fall from grace, at least not the way that I understand it.

He fell from human grace. I agree with you that one does not fall from the grace of God.

FWIW, St. Paul doesn't mind the language of falling from God's grace: "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace" (Gal 5:4). We can debate about what he meant (we would disagree), but there's no sense, IMO, getting bent out of shape about biblical language. (The same applies to concerns about how we talk about salvation: "God saves people, we don't save anyone." On the one hand, that's obviously true, but OTOH the NT speaks repeatedly about human persons saving others and even themselves. Why be more fastidious than the NT?)

[metalfoot]

I don't mind the expression "falling from grace" so long as it is understood that one can always fall back into grace!

[Persona]

I don't think I've ever thought of it as a human thing, but especially when it is a fallen preacher involved. The majority of people will have no "grace" for a fallen preacher, the word doesn't even occur to me in his case, inside his circle or out.

[MattPage]

Any chance we could get this thread back on topic? Am I the only one that suspects that the article is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill?

Matt

[Rich Kennedy]

I think you are right. Mark Barna a Colorado Springs religion reporter has been on the case and attended services yesterday. According to Barna, Long Pond Media is doing a documentary on Haggard and paid expenses of some of the attendees. His most recent blogpost seems to be a summary at least of his article in todays Colorado Springs Gazette. Scroll down the blog. Some recent entries are about Haggard including a novel tithe system and a lottery from the offerings. The winner gets 10% of the take, 25% of which to keep and the 75% of "winnings goes to the worthy, non-profit cause of the winner's choosing.

[Peter T Chattaway]

Rich Kennedy wrote:
: Scroll down the blog. Some recent entries are about Haggard including a novel tithe system and a lottery from the offerings. The winner gets 10% of the take, 25% of which to keep and the 75% of "winnings goes to the worthy, non-profit cause of the winner's choosing.

[Rich Kennedy]

I scrolled down and found a corrective update to the lottery story. Haggard told Barna that, at the direction of a congregant picked at random, some part of the "take" can be directed to a needy organisation of which the congregant is aware. Barna quotes the St. James Church website (the name of the church in question here) to the effect that this gets the congregation involved in the ministry and service of the church. I actually like this aspect of the church. The schlubs in the pews having a chance at decision making over money? Such rarely happens in a church of any stripe! I bristled at the notion of a nine member board, of which the Haggards are two, that is tasked with running the church. While I like the fact that others than Ted have ultimate authority, I neverappreciate the same guys always calling the shots. I suppose that for startup, you need usual suspects, but it would be good to rotate them out when the ministry expands.

So far, the ideals seem to be good I like what I read. But I've only read of one service and I'm naturally a cynic.

e2c, on 07 June 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

A lottery from the offerings??!!

And I'd lulled myself into believing that American churches couldn't possibly get any more crassly commercial.

Boy, was I ever wrong! (In all seriousness, the lottery idea turns my stomach.)

Yeesh.

Depends on the lottery. Depends on how it is set up. The first thing I thought of before the correction was, nice PR move for a new church. EVERYBODY bitches about the money churches have and how it enriches the leaders. This turns that Judas objection on its head in a Robin Hood sort of way, including a say in where some of it is directed.

[Persona]

And people have been playing Bingo in churches for years. And this week a Pastor was shot and killed in Chicago over an $800 poker game.

[Rich Kennedy]

e2c, on 07 June 2010 - 06:18 PM, said:

While I agree that the congregation - the contributors to the offering - definitely should have some say over where the money goes, the idea of any kind of lottery seems... well. I said it already.

But remember, the lottery was a misinterpretation by another local paper out there.

OK, naming a nondenominational (at this point, they don't rule out affiliation down the road) evangelical church "St. James" is a little different. Good choice to model the church's ideals as well as countering the modern trend of unidentifiably generic names. Saddleback, Northridge, Family Life. I don't like this trying to avoid identifiable church characteristics. It really is just kicking the preconceived notion of what you are doing down the road a block or two. Actually, if one is truly observant, one can make accurate wildass guesses about the kind of church you are by the way you hide it in your name.

Edited by Rich Kennedy, 07 June 2010 - 10:29 PM.

[MattPage]

Thanks Rich,

I think it just confirms my initial suspicions. I don't really know enough about Haggard to make a judgement, but leaders (like all of us) commit sins, sometimes including hypocrisy and deception (like lying when asked if they are one of Jesus' followers whilst they warm their hands by a fire). Does that bar them from ministry forever? In my book "no". I'd suggest Haggard shouldn't be given quite such a high profile role again, but why shouldn't he go back into church leadership again.

Matt

[Peter T Chattaway]

FWIW, I think there's a significant difference between Peter's one moment of cowardice (in a very high-pressure situation) and Ted Haggard's years of hypocrisy and deceit. Perhaps someone in Haggard's position should be allowed back into ministry at some point, perhaps not, but I think one can also argue that he's rushing back into the job far too quickly. (See also Rod Dreher's response to Haggard's wife's suggestion that, if Haggard had NOT become a church leader again, their lives would have been over.)

[Rich Kennedy]

Matt, I also have grave reservations about Haggard based on the recent past. However, as I've said before, he seems to have thought the "churchy" things through and come up with a few fresh ideas. He also seems to want to be more inclusive on the issue of sexual sin. If I can speculate based on what I've read from Barna and some few other sources, the intent is for a via media of chastity as a work in progress. My suspicions lie with his discernment in his own life as a leader of St. James. No one questions his obvious pastoring abilities. How will he stand as an up front example in personal life and working on his weaknesses?

Edited by Rich Kennedy, 08 June 2010 - 10:14 AM.

[Greg P]

Rich Kennedy, on 08 June 2010 - 10:09 AM, said:

My suspicions lie with his discernment in his own life as a leader of St. James. No one questions his obvious pastoring abilities. How will he stand as an up front example in personal life and working on his weaknesses?

This is pretty much my take as well. And let's face it; even in non-religious circles, visiting a gay prostitute while taking meth ain't exactly what most people would call a "weakness" or a "mistake".

But the sad fact is, what are Haggard's professional options at this point? Most evangelical pastors-- fallen or otherwise-- aren't qualified to do much in today's marketplace. Their "degrees" from independent Bible Colleges are worth next to nothing. I think a couple years ago Ted was working for a mortgage company, passing out flyers door to door. The guy was one of THE shining lights in American evangelicalism, do you really expect him to get a job mowing lawns or parking cars?

I've been around enough career politicans and pastors in my life to know that people quickly become attached to "leading" others. This insatiable drive to "make a difference in the community and the lives of others" is almost always fueled by the desire to be on stage.

Edited by Greg P, 08 June 2010 - 11:30 AM.

[Peter T Chattaway]

Greg P wrote:
: The guy was one of THE shining lights in American evangelicalism, do you really expect him to get a job mowing lawns or parking cars?

If his soul matters to him more than the celebrity, sure, quite possibly.

[Greg P]

Peter T Chattaway, on 08 June 2010 - 11:33 AM, said:

Greg P wrote:
: The guy was one of THE shining lights in American evangelicalism, do you really expect him to get a job mowing lawns or parking cars?

If his soul matters to him more than the celebrity, sure, quite possibly.

Heh. I don't think anything is more important to Ted Haggard than celebrity, marriage and family included.