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The Death of Osama bin Laden


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#1 CrimsonLine

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:28 PM

I posted this on my blog this morning. Food for thought, and for comment.

Bibical Reflections on the death of Osama bin Laden
By Rev. Denes House
Monday, May 2, 2011

As I’m sure was the case for many early-to-bedders, I woke up this morning to the news that Osama bin Laden had been found and killed by US ground forces in Pakistan, ending a manhunt that had lasted almost ten years. The news programs were filled with scenes of jubilant Americans celebrating the death of their nation’s bitter enemy, a man who had masterminded the murders of well over 3000 of their fellow citizens in horrifying terrorist acts.

I must confess, my heart was torn. I have prayed for the last ten years that bin Laden would be brought to justice, but also that he would be brought to repentance. To the best of my knowledge, only one of those prayers was answered yesterday.

As in all things, it is the duty of the Christian to submit our thoughts and feelings about bin Laden’s death to the Lordship of God, and shape our thoughts and feelings according to His Word. So how does the Lord feel about this death?

The starting place for understanding the Lord’s perspective is in Ezekiel: “As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” (Ezekiel 33:11) God’s desire is that the wicked would turn from their ways – that they would repent – and would find God’s forgiveness. This is restated in the New Testament: “The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) God does not relish anyone’s death – even Osama bin Laden’s.

We see a vivid example of this in the story of a young man named Saul in the book of Acts. Saul was the Osama bin Laden of his day, planning and carrying out terrorist acts against pockets of Christians, hauling them off to arrest and execution, driven by religious zeal to destroy what he saw as the enemies of God. You can read his story in Acts 7:59-8:3, and chapter 9. Saul’s rampage was only stopped by the direct intervention of the risen Christ, who appeared to Saul while he was on his way to one of his raids, and struck him blind. Encountering the living Jesus completely altered this enemy of the faith, who repented, was reborn and filled with the Holy Spirit, and became the most ardent proponent of Jesus Christ the world has ever known. Renamed Paul, this apostle of the Lord Jesus wrote this: “I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.” (1 Timothy 1:12–16) Paul points out that if God’s mercy can reach him, it can reach anybody.

This is one reason why Jesus gave his followers one of the most difficult commands ever given to humanity: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:43–45) God loves His enemies, and so should those of us who are members of His family.

In fact, Proverbs tells us, “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, lest the LORD see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.” (Proverbs 24:17–18) Christians should take no delight in the death of Osama bin Laden, even though bin Laden planned and cheered the death of many Christians.

At the same time, we know that God delights in justice. To pick just one passage out of many in Scripture, Psalm 9 tells us, “But the LORD sits enthroned forever; he has established his throne for justice, and he judges the world with righteousness; he judges the peoples with uprightness.” (Psalms 9:7–8)

God has entrusted justice, on this earth, to human authority. “For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.” (Romans 13:3–4)

But what does justice look like for Osama bin Laden? He is clearly guilty of thousands of murders, admitted by his own lips, confirmed by the testimony of many confederates. But the forfeiture of his own life cannot pay the penalty for thousands of murders! In the Old Testament law, God recognized this, and commanded this treatment for mass murderers: “And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God.” (Deuteronomy 21:22–23 cf. Joshua 8:29) Hanging the dead body of a mass murderer on a tree was a statement that his crime was so heinous that the only true justice for him would be in the afterlife. His true punishment would have to be at the hands of God, because nothing men could do to him would suffice.

This, of course, brings the Christian’s mind to Jesus, the innocent man who was hung on a tree and killed, bearing the curse of God on behalf of all men (Galatians 3:13). To the eyes of all onlookers, Jesus received the punishment due to blasphemers, but God turned the tables on conventional wisdom by raising Jesus from the dead on the third day, vindicating Jesus and destroying the curse on behalf of all who would believe in Him.

The Christian should be glad that justice was done, and that Osama bin Laden received the gravest punishment human beings can give for his crimes. But we cannot delight in his death, because the Lord’s desire was that he should repent, and find forgiveness in Jesus. As it stands, we commend Osama bin Laden to the Judge of all the earth. And may God have mercy on his soul.

#2 M. Leary

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:44 PM

The Christian should be glad that justice was done, and that Osama bin Laden received the gravest punishment human beings can give for his crimes. But we cannot delight in his death, because the Lord’s desire was that he should repent, and find forgiveness in Jesus. As it stands, we commend Osama bin Laden to the Judge of all the earth. And may God have mercy on his soul.


I appreciate your post, but take issue with this equivocation. I am never glad when the killing of other created beings is called justice. The only real justice we have ever seen in history is in the resurrection of Jesus, and any just vengeance flows eschatologically from His resurrection-enabled ability as Lord to judge between the righteous and unrighteous.

These kinds of events are prophetic stopgaps, post-Eden plan Bs, terrible accidents.

Edited by M. Leary, 02 May 2011 - 12:47 PM.


#3 mrmando

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:50 PM

I doubt Denes intended to equate civil justice with divine justice, but I appreciate these thoughtful remarks from both of you.

#4 Thom Wade

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 01:08 PM

Wasn't Saul a Pharisee? Would that really be the same thing as a terrorist?

#5 J.A.A. Purves

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 01:22 PM

All the celebration and all the self-congratulations are missing the point. Osama bin Laden has been little more than an old figurehead for al-Qaeda for years. Ayman al-Zawahiri is currently one the major al-Qaeda leaders right now, and it's not like even killing him is going to end this.

Raymond Ibrahim -

Years ago, Ayman al-Zawahiri, now al-Qaeda’s undisputed leader, placed it all in context when he was asked about the status of bin Laden and the Taliban’s Mullah Omar. He confidently replied: “Jihad in the path of Allah is greater than any individual or organization. It is a struggle between Truth and Falsehood, until Allah Almighty inherits the earth and those who live in it. Mullah Muhammad Omar and Sheikh Osama bin Laden — may Allah protect them from all evil — are merely two soldiers of Islam in the journey of jihad, while the struggle between Truth [Islam] and Falsehood [non-Islam] transcends time” (The Al Qaeda Reader, p.182).

Should Christians rejoice? No. This entire conflict is a great tragedy. It's going to take more than killing symbolic leaders to accomplish any lasting good here. Politically, we need our government leaders to stay calm, rational, and not make public displays of themselves taking exultation in something that, if it doesn't provoke further attacks itself, will if they start celebrating the event. Spiritually, I can think of nothing better to turn believers in Islam away from Christianity and the gospel forever than to see Christians celebrating the death of bin Laden.

Edited by Persiflage, 02 May 2011 - 01:24 PM.


#6 CrimsonLine

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 01:45 PM

The Christian should be glad that justice was done, and that Osama bin Laden received the gravest punishment human beings can give for his crimes. But we cannot delight in his death, because the Lord’s desire was that he should repent, and find forgiveness in Jesus. As it stands, we commend Osama bin Laden to the Judge of all the earth. And may God have mercy on his soul.


I appreciate your post, but take issue with this equivocation. I am never glad when the killing of other created beings is called justice. The only real justice we have ever seen in history is in the resurrection of Jesus, and any just vengeance flows eschatologically from His resurrection-enabled ability as Lord to judge between the righteous and unrighteous.

These kinds of events are prophetic stopgaps, post-Eden plan Bs, terrible accidents.


Hm. I don't see it as an equivocation at all. If you want to talk cosmic justice, then justice cannot be done by human beings on this earth. But the Bible talks about humans doing justice all the time, it commands leaders to pursue justice, it condemns leaders who pervert justice, it commends leaders who follow justice. Doing justice - ruling - is a part of the human creation mandate (e.g. Genesis 1:26, and 9:5-6). Far from being "Plan B's," human justice - rightly pursued - is actually a return to God's "Plan A"!

Wasn't Saul a Pharisee? Would that really be the same thing as a terrorist?

Pharisee does not equal terrorist, any more than Muslim does. But Saul's actions - the extralegal imprisonment, pursuit, and execution of Christians - are very clearly terrorist-like behavior.

Edited by CrimsonLine, 02 May 2011 - 01:45 PM.


#7 SDG

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 01:50 PM

I am never glad when the killing of other created beings is called justice. The only real justice we have ever seen in history is in the resurrection of Jesus

This seems to me a case in point of the fallacy of defining a word out of useful existence. "Language is not an infallible guide, but it contains, with all its defects, a good deal of stored insight and experience. If you begin by flouting it, it has a way of avenging itself later on" (Lewis).

"Justice" is a useful word that has real bearing on human behavior. To dismiss it as inapplicable to the whole of human history save the resurrection of Jesus seems unlikely to me to result in a more just world -- on the contrary. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding?

#8 M. Leary

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 01:58 PM

No, I don't think you are misunderstanding. I am the token crypto-Anabaptist in these parts, so while I thought I would extend my appreciation for Denes addressing this event with the narrative wisdom of scripture, I couldn't help but appeal to that particular nuance. I do think that using the word "justice" apprehensively with regard to the "whole of human history save the resurrection of Jesus"* will likely "result in a more just world." But in hindsight, I realize my post was an instant thread derailment. Sorry, Denes.


*insofar as the resurrection and Jesus' consequent Lordship are linked.

Edited by M. Leary, 02 May 2011 - 01:59 PM.


#9 J.A.A. Purves

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:09 PM

Making a public display of celebrating "Justice" in many cases, without even exploring the moral implications of doing so, is often unwise. This is one of those cases. The news media is currently engaged in the task of creating hours and hours worth of al-Qaeda recruitment video footage.

#10 Darrel Manson

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:12 PM

any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind

I think maybe Donne was on to something.

#11 Darren H

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:28 PM

At the risk of further derailing the thread . . . Six years ago I had the unfortunate experience of participating in a capital murder trial, which gave me way too many opportunities to work through this issue. The person on trial got exactly what he "deserved" under that state's laws, but I'd never use the word "justice" to describe how it felt when the jury sent him to death row. I won't attempt to attach a theological justification to my opinion here, but I see every act of violence as tragic and sorrowful -- yes, even when the act is for the greater good and even when it's necessary. But having looked into the eyes of someone who brutally murdered two people I dearly loved, I feel at a distant remove from the people who are celebrating today. I understand, intellectually, why they're doing it, but it would never occur to me to participate in it.

I like MLeary's definition of justice. It explains why I always hear scare quotes around the word when politicians use it.

#12 SDG

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 02:53 PM

I don't have time to participate here as I'd like, but at least I'd like to throw out this morning's Vatican statement, which I know some of you have seen:

Osama Bin Laden - as everyone knows - has had the gravest responsibility for spreading hatred and division among people, causing the deaths of countless people, and exploiting religion for this purpose.

Faced with the death of a man, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibility of everyone before God and man, and hopes and pledges that every event is not an opportunity for a further growth of hatred, but of peace.

I think that strikes the right note. Bin Laden's death is not itself an occasion for rejoicing, but we may reasonably hope that it may offer an opportunit for a further growth not of hatred but of peace.

I do think that it is possible to say of bin Laden's death that a measure of justice has been done, but this is not a thesis I can defend here at this time.

Edited by SDG, 02 May 2011 - 02:54 PM.


#13 CrimsonLine

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 03:06 PM

Christianity Today has posted a list of the most popular Scripture verses posted on Twitter and Facebook in the last 24 hours. It's an interesting glimpse into what Christians are wrestling with today.

No, I don't think you are misunderstanding. I am the token crypto-Anabaptist in these parts, so while I thought I would extend my appreciation for Denes addressing this event with the narrative wisdom of scripture, I couldn't help but appeal to that particular nuance. I do think that using the word "justice" apprehensively with regard to the "whole of human history save the resurrection of Jesus"* will likely "result in a more just world." But in hindsight, I realize my post was an instant thread derailment. Sorry, Denes.


*insofar as the resurrection and Jesus' consequent Lordship are linked.


Thread derailment is awesome, dude. :) I'm all for it.

any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind

I think maybe Donne was on to something.


Certainly. But there's many different kinds of death, and the repercussions of disparate deaths are not equal nor identical. Bin Laden caused thousands of murders. Each of those deaths that he caused were a scar on humanity. Bin Laden was doubtless planning thousands more murders, some of which may not happen because of his death yesterday.

How does one weigh that equation? God has committed to humanity the task of bringing some measure of justice to this earth. On balance, was bin Laden's death just? On balance, did bin Laden's death help prevent future injustice?

#14 Rich Kennedy

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 03:58 PM

I've lost a lot of the cynicism I've had over the years, but one form remains. I have a hard time hearing the word "justice" anymore. It is hard not to hear it used at all without some socio/political tinge at least between the lines. Mercifully, I have not yet experienced this in this thread, partly because I know and trust those who have used it in this discussion. Sadly though, there are echoes that I am attempting to muffle as I read through this.

Certainly. But there's many different kinds of death, and the repercussions of disparate deaths are not equal nor identical. Bin Laden caused thousands of murders. Each of those deaths that he caused were a scar on humanity. Bin Laden was doubtless planning thousands more murders, some of which may not happen because of his death yesterday.


This might be some latent cynicism talking, but this scarring. In the 7000 or so years of recorded history there has been so much scarring of this sort and other sorts, I fail to see the new scars so clearly. Only the scar tissue. The guy is dead. He apparantly fought to the last, or wanted to appear so to his attackers. I was oddly wistful this morning at the news. Much of the substance of the above posts gets to my wistfulness.

Heh, I must say that my FIRST thought was one of hoax. Found bin Laden! Killed him! Buried at sea quickly to observe the Moslem rule of burial within 24 hours. Too neat. So efficient. There hasn't been such ecfficiency in this administration. Or in any administration in recent memory.

How does one weigh that equation? God has committed to humanity the task of bringing some measure of justice to this earth. On balance, was bin Laden's death just? On balance, did bin Laden's death help prevent future injustice?

Such an equation is impossible to weigh. I see it in terms of something like chess moves and this is one of them which has a small measure of finality to it, but does not equal or balance many of the moves on any or all sides that were made before. I think that humanity mucked up the justice commission long ago and this/these deaths neither advance or hinder justice. This death does not prevent more deaths.

#15 tenpenny

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 04:25 PM

Justice must be about the most scalable concept that there is. Michael is no doubt right to say that the resurrection of Jesus is the purest example of it. All human attempts to implement justice are flawed, because we are flawed, but we mustn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, or think that we shouldn't try to be as just as we possibly can.

And then there's the Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry style of justice. Who among us has not at least sometimes, secretly, against the wishes of our better angels, enjoyed the illicit thrill of watching Clint/Harry mete out justice directly?

Or, if we (mostly) manage to resist such morally coarse and simplistic fare as Dirty Harry, how about the miniseries/novel Lonesome Dove, in which Augustus "Gus" McCrae and Woodrow F. Call mantrack those killers in the Kansas Territory who'd slaughtered innocent sodbusters (and then find, to their dismay, that their old friend Jake Spoon has passively gone along with the murders)? McCrae and Call aren't Texas Rangers anymore, and even if they still were, it's not their jurisdiction. Yet, they track, capture and hang the whole bunch of them (including Jake) from the most convenient trees.

Is this justice? Remember, there's probably not a bonafide lawman within a hundred miles of where they're at. If they don't bring the killers to account, it's likely no one else will, and that's just a fact. I know - mob rule, and all that. But McCrae and Call aren't ruffians, or men who lose their heads in the heat of the moment. They're good men with sound judgment. I think neither of them even wants this unpleasant task. But it's been handed to them. And they will not shirk it (think of Call's tribute to Deets after the latter's death, "Never shirked a task - splendid behavior"). Moral trepidations aside, I have to say, this feels like justice to me. It's not perfect justice like Michael's talking about, or even jurisprudential justice with black robes and powdered wigs, but I would call it good enough justice.

So, yesterday, what we basically had was this: "Osama bin Laden? Meet Gus McCrae and Woodrow F. Call." I would call that good enough justice too.

Edited by tenpenny, 03 May 2011 - 09:06 AM.


#16 Greg P

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 04:25 PM

I think something deep in human nature rejoices when an unrighteous man whose life brought so much death and destruction, meets a deserving fate-- at least in a civil sense. There is an innate-- and I'm not convinced altogether inappropriate-- desire to cheer. The imprecatory Psalms all speak to this. The great Westerns along with films like Inglorious Basterds, do too.

I'm always queasy of right-wing flag waving, militarism and such, and I think we need to be careful not to sink into the lowest-common denominator mob mentality, but why is it such a horrible thing to be glad that civil justice was exacted on an enemy in wartime? Why do spiritual people have to be burdened with faux-piety over this man being cut down in war? Is there never occasion for rejoicing in earthly justice? (and specifically war-time justice)

I am not comparing the two events historically, but who among us has not viewed the momentous flag-raising(s) on Mt. Suribachi in 1945 and been filled with even a small degree of joy? Thousands of enemy combatants were killed and mangled in ways unimaginable to most civilians, in order for those men to capture that mountain. (not to mention the nearly 7,000 american lives lost in the conflict) Certainly not the Way of Jesus. And yet, I think to excessively stifle or even outright deny that human impulse to rejoice in the "justice" of such an act, is to be somehow disingenuous.

God has committed to humanity the task of bringing some measure of justice to this earth. On balance, was bin Laden's death just? On balance, did bin Laden's death help prevent future injustice?


I'm in agreement with you on this Denes. And my answers would be:
1) Yes. His death was merciful and he did not suffer unnecessarily (according to brief descriptions of the wound inflicted)
2) Probably not as much as people think, unfortunately. And herein lies the broader problem of conflicts with these types of figures and organizations in our fallen world.

Edited by Greg P, 02 May 2011 - 04:38 PM.


#17 Ryan H.

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 05:40 PM

I think something deep in human nature rejoices when an unrighteous man whose life brought so much death and destruction, meets a deserving fate-- at least in a civil sense. There is an innate-- and I'm not convinced altogether inappropriate-- desire to cheer. The imprecatory Psalms all speak to this. The great Westerns along with films like Inglorious Basterds, do too.

I'm always queasy of right-wing flag waving, militarism and such, and I think we need to be careful not to sink into the lowest-common denominator mob mentality, but why is it such a horrible thing to be glad that civil justice was exacted on an enemy in wartime? Why do spiritual people have to be burdened with faux-piety over this man being cut down in war? Is there never occasion for rejoicing in earthly justice? (and specifically war-time justice)

I share your frustration, Greg.

#18 Andy Whitman

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 06:10 PM


I think something deep in human nature rejoices when an unrighteous man whose life brought so much death and destruction, meets a deserving fate-- at least in a civil sense. There is an innate-- and I'm not convinced altogether inappropriate-- desire to cheer. The imprecatory Psalms all speak to this. The great Westerns along with films like Inglorious Basterds, do too.

I'm always queasy of right-wing flag waving, militarism and such, and I think we need to be careful not to sink into the lowest-common denominator mob mentality, but why is it such a horrible thing to be glad that civil justice was exacted on an enemy in wartime? Why do spiritual people have to be burdened with faux-piety over this man being cut down in war? Is there never occasion for rejoicing in earthly justice? (and specifically war-time justice)

I share your frustration, Greg.

Just a different viewpoint. The 3,000 people killed in the 9/11 attacks are still just as dead. I am no fan of Osama bin Laden. He was an evil man. It's good that he's dead. But I do question the whole "justice" angle, both on arithmetical and moral grounds. From a justice standpoint, the death of one man in no way makes up for the deaths of 3,000 civilians on 9/11, or the deaths of 1,000+ Coalition troops and contractors killed in Afghanistan, or the 1,100+ U.S. Soldiers killed in Afghanistan, or the 15,000+ Afghan troops and civilians killed, or the $400,000,000,000+ and counting spent in an ongoing war. This is not justice in any sense of the word I understand.

I can think of no better Al Qaida recruitment videos than the gloating scenes the news networks have been feeding us all day. Violence begets violence. I think that might even be a biblical concept. What we have taught the world in the past 24 hours is that it's okay to assassinate political leaders with whom we disagree. And that philosophy has a way of rebounding on peoples' (and leaders') heads. We never learn. We were already in deep shit. And it just got a lot deeper. Justice? Where is justice here? The world just got a lot less safe, and "freedom" marches on. God bless America.

#19 Pax (unregistered)

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 06:28 PM

I celebrate what his death represents and accomplishes--but not the act itself.

Hmmm...that sounds like it could be said about the Cross, too-

#20 Greg P

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:26 PM

Just a different viewpoint. The 3,000 people killed in the 9/11 attacks are still just as dead. I am no fan of Osama bin Laden. He was an evil man. It's good that he's dead. But I do question the whole "justice" angle, both on arithmetical and moral grounds. From a justice standpoint, the death of one man in no way makes up for the deaths of 3,000 civilians on 9/11, or the deaths of 1,000+ Coalition troops and contractors killed in Afghanistan, or the 1,100+ U.S. Soldiers killed in Afghanistan, or the 15,000+ Afghan troops and civilians killed, or the $400,000,000,000+ and counting spent in an ongoing war. This is not justice in any sense of the word I understand.

I can think of no better Al Qaida recruitment videos than the gloating scenes the news networks have been feeding us all day. Violence begets violence. I think that might even be a biblical concept. What we have taught the world in the past 24 hours is that it's okay to assassinate political leaders with whom we disagree. And that philosophy has a way of rebounding on peoples' (and leaders') heads. We never learn. We were already in deep shit. And it just got a lot deeper. Justice? Where is justice here? The world just got a lot less safe, and "freedom" marches on. God bless America.



Before the mods descend on us here, I'll just say politically I'm in agreement with you Andy... at least regarding the unwinnable, FUBAR nature of these conflicts.

The only "war" that ever seemed to have universal approval amongst free people was the direct one against Al Qaeda and it's leader(s). Yesterday seemed for a brief, illusory moment, like a return to that original, idealized mission. That sentiment is probably a self-deception.

But I guess the real question appropriate for this forum is whether Christians ought to cheer, lift a pint or dance a jig when such men are violently deposed of. I think such a reflex is not only appropriate, but likely innate. We yearn to celebrate when unquestionably evil met meet their just deserts. The response today from friends on my Facebook newsfeed is fairly unanimous and filled with scripture references and MLK quotes-- even from my atheist and humanist peeps-- and being the eternal contrarian, I find such collective preachiness a tad bit conformist and uncomfortable.

I celebrate what his death represents and accomplishes--but not the act itself.


I know this will sound contradictory coming from the guy who is such a vocal opponent of the traditional hell and all it's violent imagery but I actually have no problem at all with the "act" itself. I bet the brave young man who landed the two money shots probably doesn't either. A very merciful end, frankly, to one who probably didn't deserve it. So there's some measure of grace for Osama too-- even in the end. Right?

Edited by Greg P, 02 May 2011 - 08:45 PM.