67 replies to this topic

[Clint M]

Since the film is scheduled to come out this year, it's about time Manderlay gets it own thread. (Thanks Alan!)

Von Trier cuts scene of buchery from Manderlay.

Edited by Clint M, 21 April 2005 - 04:35 PM.

[Persona]

Link to the Official Dogville thread.

-s.

[Christian]

So I guess this link goes here.

[Andrew]

twitchfilm.net has a link to the trailer (sorry, no time to post the direct link) - a very clear follow-up to 'Dogville': stylistically and in the presence of Grace

[Clint M]

twitchfilm.net has a link to the trailer (sorry, no time to post the direct link) - a very clear follow-up to 'Dogville':  stylistically and in the presence of Grace

Here it is.

This is a direct link to the trailer if you want to DL it. (6.13 MB)

Edited by Clint M, 21 April 2005 - 07:32 AM.

[MattPage]

Had forgotten (/failed to realise) how much I love that music.

And it'll be nice to see Dafoe in something that could be quite good for a change.

Matt

Edited by MattPage, 21 April 2005 - 08:58 AM.

[Persona]

Yeah, Matt. Just watched the trailer three times, and I loved it. It took me back to the original Dogville experience -- the solemn, serene music; the spacious, dark atmosphere; the lulling, story-tellish narration, and everything else that we adored.

After seeing her in both The Village and now the trailer, I can see that Bryce Dallas Howard is going to rock. She is going to be awesome! And whatever her role her, I fear it, and I fear it more in her hands than in Nicole Kidman's. The lead actress swap might actually help some of the believability of the second film, after knowing everything that Grace went through to get to the end of the first story.

And speaking of narrative arc, what do you make of this final bit of trailer dialogue?

Grace would have to change this oppressive community.  She was on her own and guarded by many.  But how would she set about it?

Btw, given that this is Von Trier's second trilogy, shouldn't the title of this thread be a bit more specific? I believe this trilogy is referred to as the USA: Land of Opportunities Trilogy, but his first trilogy, which remains so mesmerizing even more than a decade later, was the Europa Trilogy.

-s.

Edited by stef, 21 April 2005 - 09:47 AM.

[MattPage]

which 3 films were in the Europa trilogy?

Matt

[Persona]

Did I say "feel good?"

Scratch that.

Lars has never made us feel good. I guess what I was implying is that the processes that went into those films (especially The Element of Crime and Zentropa), are so outlandishly art-house that just looking at the movies even with the sound off would make me "feel good."

-s.

Edited by stef, 19 May 2005 - 12:02 PM.

[Persona]

Oops. I hit "edit" instead of "respond" and erased the initial post.

Whatever.

The Element of Crime, Epidemic, and Zentropa.

-s.

[Darrel Manson]

Aren't Breaking the Waves, The Idiots and Dancer in the Dark often referred to as his "Golden Heart Trilogy"?

[M. Dale Prins]

Yes.

Dale

[Persona]

Oh no. I am noticing a trend, which could effect Manderlay for the worse. The second film in each of these trilogies (Epidemic and The Idiots, respectively) is the lacking film in each trilogy.

-s.

[Anders]

So, Stef, is The Idiots the weakest film out of that Von Trier trilogy? Because I've only seen Breaking the Waves and Dancer in the Dark...

[Clint M]

Yeah, Matt.  Just watched the trailer three times, and I loved it.  It took me back to the original Dogville experience -- the solemn, serene music; the spacious, dark atmosphere; the lulling, story-tellish narration, and everything else that we adored. 

After seeing her in both The Village and now the trailer, I can see that Bryce Dallas Howard is going to rock.  She is going to be awesome!  And whatever her role her, I fear it, and I fear it more in her hands than in Nicole Kidman's.  The lead actress swap might actually help some of the believability of the second film, after knowing everything that Grace went through to get to the end of the first story.

And speaking of narrative arc, what do you make of this final bit of trailer dialogue?

Grace would have to change this oppressive community.  She was on her own and guarded by many.  But how would she set about it?

Btw, given that this is Von Trier's second trilogy, shouldn't the title of this thread be a bit more specific? I believe this trilogy is referred to as the USA: Land of Opportunities Trilogy, but his first trilogy, which remains so mesmerizing even more than a decade later, was the Europa Trilogy.

-s.

I'm beginning to think that a better name for this trilogy would be USA: Grace Unknown.

OTOH, we could start calling his entire film output the Von Trier Family.

Edited by Clint M, 21 April 2005 - 04:39 PM.

[MattPage]

Thanks Stef.

Matt

[Persona]

So, Stef, is The Idiots the weakest film out of that Von Trier trilogy? Because I've only seen Breaking the Waves and Dancer in the Dark...

That is my somewhat contrary opinion, yes. I do not find The Idiots to be a very strong film compared to the other two. I have heard before that these three together were called "The Golden Heart Trilogy," but The Idiots stands out from Breaking The Waves and Dancer in the Dark as lackluster, and there are more reasons for this than just the dogme rules that The Idiots adhered to. The other two films are big screen friendly. They are made to be huge and threatening. They are there to shake all your theatrical foundations. The narrative arc just pummels a viewer's spirit into submission, and it does this because we care. We care about what is happening to charactes we've learned to enjoy. Bess and Selma are characters that we love and relate to. From Bess's wedding and religious longings and prayers, to Selma's altruistic love of her son, there are traits that a viewer finds admirable. We enjoy these characters and find qualities in them that would like to emmulate.

The Idiots is like watching family home movies, only the family is a part of a cult-like society of stupid-heads that could be imitated by any third grader who forgot his ritalin. The characters are unlikeable, untrustworthy, and just plain dumb. Von Trier can do whatever he wants to them and in this case we don't care becasue essentially we've already been indoctrinated into his world and we know what is coming, but with characters so shallow and meaningless, who have nothing of value to offer, we could care less whether the director is a sadist or not.

I'm not even sure if I made it all the way to the end of The Idiots. I can't remember the ending. It would be the only Von Trier I haven't seen, if I didn't make it that far.

Regardless, Anders, spare yourself the time. The perfect film to go with Breaking The Waves and Dancer in the Dark is Medea. Nothing else will suffice.

-s.

Edited by stef, 22 April 2005 - 09:54 AM.

[theoddone33]

The characters are unlikeable, untrustworthy, and just plain dumb.  Von Trier can do whatever he wants to them and in this case we don't care becasue essentially we've already been indoctrinated into his world and we know what is coming, but with characters so shallow and meaningless, who have nothing of value to offer, we could care less whether the director is a sadist or not.

Ironically, that quite nicely sums up my opinion on Dancer in the Dark. I haven't seen the other two films in the "trilogy", but it sounds like they'd go together quite well.

As for Manderlay, I think I would have been better off going into it not having seen the trailer, but hindsight is 20/20. You'd think he'd want to keep the donkey scene after all the flack he got for it, but I guess Von Trier is above cheap sensationalism (maybe?). It will make for a conspicuous deleted scene on the DVD I suppose.

Edited by theoddone33, 23 April 2005 - 03:46 AM.

[Persona]

Hold. The. Phones.

You saw it? How?

I am going straight to Koreapop to find out if that is how. I wonder whether they're going to have another great pre-release the way they did with the awesome Dogville double DVD.

The characters are unlikeable, untrustworthy, and just plain dumb.  Von Trier can do whatever he wants to them and in this case we don't care becasue essentially we've already been indoctrinated into his world and we know what is coming, but with characters so shallow and meaningless, who have nothing of value to offer, we could care less whether the director is a sadist or not.

Ironically, that quite nicely sums up my opinion on Dancer in the Dark.

You are being short sighted in your memory of all the Dancer in the Dark characters. There is no way you could look at Selma and say that. No way.

-s.

[theoddone33]

Sorry, I didn't see Manderlay... having seen the trailer, I am pretty sure I would rather not have seen it before watching the movie. Re-reading things, it does kind of sound like I've seen the movie... sorry for the confusion.

You are being short sighted in your memory of all the Dancer in the Dark characters. There is no way you could look at Selma and say that. No way.

I rented the movie because someone mentioned it on a list of the most sad/tragic/powerful movies ever. I thought it had the same problem as another movie on that list, Grave of the Fireflies... I couldn't buy into the tragedy. The characters in both movies experienced tragic downfall through a combination of unpreventable circumstances and their own stubbornness.

Aside from the musical numbers in DitD, through which I fast-forwarded, the thing that irked me about the entire story was that Selma refused to clear her name just so she didn't have to tell her kid that he was going blind, which he was going to figure out anyway when he had the operation. "Unlikeable, untrustworthy and just plain dumb" might be a tad harsh for Selma, but "socially inept, compulsive liar, and crippled by stubbornness" wouldn't be too far off.

So yeah, I didn't really like the film overall. It was good enough for me to give Von Trier a second chance though, which happened to be Dogville which I happened to think was incredible.