[Kyle]

I've been a lurker in the music forums for quite awhile now and I don't see much discussion on hip-hop music. I did some searching on past forums and didn't find any threads. Why is this? Surely there are a few hip-hop fans around.

But maybe there isn't. I actually listen to very little hip-hop music. It's not that I dislike the sound of the music I just don't feel any social connection to the music. They are speaking a different language to a completly foreign culture.

Despite my current aversion to hip-hop, I was an avid fan from 1992-96. That said, there are some groups that I still respect and enjoy a great amount:

A Trible Called Quest
De La Soul
Digable Planets
the Pharcyde
Wu-Tang Clan
the Roots

Then there are the more instrumental acts such as DJ Shadow and Prefuse 73.

So what type of hip-hop do you like?

[Anders]

I recently picked up the newest album from Common, produced by Kanye West, and it's pretty good.

I enjoy a lot of hip-hop music, but really find stuff like 50 Cent or The Game hampers my enjoyment of the rest of the genre.

However, I enjoy Outkast, Jurassic 5, Kanye West, Public Enemy, and The Beastie Boys.

[bvl]

I grew up listening to mostly hip-hop in high school, along with alt rock. These days, the hip-hop I listen to is mostly by believers. Here are some favorites:

Mars ILL
Deepspace5
Listener
New Breed
Dert
Soul-Junk

peace,

bvl

[Cunningham]

I like Outkast, Jurassic 5, Soul Junk, Beasty Boys, and K-Os.

[Kyle]

I grew up listening to mostly hip-hop in high school, along with alt rock. These days, the hip-hop I listen to is mostly by believers. Here are some favorites:

Mars ILL
Deepspace5
Listener
New Breed
Dert
Soul-Junk

peace,

bvl

How do they compare to popular hip-hop? I remember about ten years ago hip-hop within the Christian community was laughable at best. I'm sure it's much better now, I feel the Christian community as a whole has made great strides in this regards. I work as a youth minister and most of the kids that I work with listen to hip-hop exclusively. Frankly, I'm a bit disturbed by the lyrical content of most of the stuff they play. Since most don't pay attention to the lyrics anyway and if they do, it's not critically, I'm insterested in providing them a bit more "wholesome" options, hopefully with a positive spiritual bent. It might even be a great exercise for them to compare the lyrical content of different MC's.

[bvl]

How do they compare to popular hip-hop?  I remember about ten years ago hip-hop within the Christian community was laughable at best.  I'm sure it's much better now, I feel the Christian community as a whole has made great strides in this regards.  I work as a youth minister and most of the kids that I work with listen to hip-hop exclusively.  Frankly, I'm a bit disturbed by the lyrical content of most of the stuff they play.  Since most don't pay attention to the lyrics anyway and if they do, it's not critically, I'm insterested in providing them a bit more "wholesome" options, hopefully with a positive spiritual bent.  It might even be a great exercise for them to compare the lyrical content of different MC's.

I grew up listening to a lot of hip-hop, and it's been kind of the musical center for much of what I've listened to and produced for the last 20 years, so I am pretty discerning. My tastes run to the Native Tongues (tribe called quest, de la soul, etc) side of things, as that's the music that really impacted me.

I've definitely run across some less-than-stellar Christian hip-hop, but you could also make the same statement about any kind of music, secular or Christian. The groups I listed off are great artists on a purely aesthetic level, and I'm not giving them a pass just because they're believers.

It's definitely an exciting time, as you alluded to. One note: most of the groups I listed are on the East Coast, underground vibe. There's quality Christian hip-hop that's closer to the mainstream in terms of sound and vibe, it's just not what I happen to listen to much myself. The beatmart crew would be a good place to start for that flavor.

Hope this helps,

bvl

[Michael Todd]

I've always been told that the Wu-Tang Clan ain't nothin' to mess wit, but my source on that bit o' information is unreliable -- Dave Chapelle.

[Kyle]

I grew up listening to a lot of hip-hop, and it's been kind of the musical center for much of what I've listened to and produced for the last 20 years, so I am pretty discerning. My tastes run to the Native Tongues (tribe called quest, de la soul, etc) side of things, as that's the music that really impacted me.

I've definitely run across some less-than-stellar Christian hip-hop, but you could also make the same statement about any kind of music, secular or Christian. The groups I listed off are great artists on a purely aesthetic level, and I'm not giving them a pass just because they're believers.

This is awesome to know! I too was a big fan of the Native Tongues, I'm excited to listen to some of the acts you mentioned.

[Kyle]

I've always been told that the Wu-Tang Clan ain't nothin' to mess wit, but my source on that bit o' information is unreliable -- Dave Chapelle.

The Wu-Tang clan is nothing to mess with. But I hold them directly responsible for moving me into rock music. I probably would still be listening to Hip-Hop if my Dad didn't find my Ol' Dirty Bastard disc laying around my room and then decide to give it a listen. My Dad didn't agree with Ol' Dirty's view of women. Go figure. Then he made me get rid of about 80% of my collection. It was a very sad moment for me at the time. Part of me wants to re-purchase some of those albums that I lost but I can't bring myself to do it.

[noneuclidean]

I grew up listening to mostly hip-hop in high school, along with alt rock. These days, the hip-hop I listen to is mostly by believers. Here are some favorites:

Mars ILL
Deepspace5
Listener
New Breed
Dert
Soul-Junk

peace,

bvl

How do they compare to popular hip-hop? I remember about ten years ago hip-hop within the Christian community was laughable at best. I'm sure it's much better now, I feel the Christian community as a whole has made great strides in this regards. I work as a youth minister and most of the kids that I work with listen to hip-hop exclusively. Frankly, I'm a bit disturbed by the lyrical content of most of the stuff they play. Since most don't pay attention to the lyrics anyway and if they do, it's not critically, I'm insterested in providing them a bit more "wholesome" options, hopefully with a positive spiritual bent. It might even be a great exercise for them to compare the lyrical content of different MC's.

This is actuallly something that really concerns me right now. I firmly believe that rock music is dead/dying and that hip-hop is going to replace it. But as it stands most hip-hop (let alone Christian hip-hop) is sub-par. The only good stuff comes from the underground ( I agree about deepspace 5 and listener). I write alot about this on my blog. http://thethoughtsof...l.blogspot.com/ I've also got a group I'm in called soberminded that's trying to make artistic Christian hip-hop: myspace.com/soberminded . That's not to say that we're good, but we're trying. I really feel that this is an area that more Christian artists need to explore.

[Jeff Rioux]

Despite spending my teenage years listening to Run D.M.C. almost exclusively, I find myself, like andersk4, not avoiding hip hop but not able to find a lot that I want to listen to. I do like the Roots, and think they are very good. But they are a band, and they love Rock and Roll (their song The Seed is a metaphor for this tension - it talks about having an affair behind his lovers' (hip hop) back, and when the woman he's having the affair with has the baby, he's going to name her rock and roll - so they have to sneak around with their love for rock). I also like the Beastie Boys. I really like Arrested Development, and while they've broken up and gotten back together, they never did anything like that first album.

People I know respect the group LA Symphony, and their work as solo artists, especially Pigeon John. Pigeon John is touring with a guy called Lyrics Born who I'd heard of a few times (I think Paste reviewed him well), so I checked him out. I like his phrasing a lot - I think he's very good. He also plays with a band.

I'm interested in the positive rap artists, like the ones connected to the Roots (like Jean Grae, Common, Talib Kweli) though I haven't listened to them enough.

Jeff

Run DMC once rapped, "I'm the king of rock, there is none higher, sucker MCs, they call me sire."

The Beastie Boys retorted, "I'm the king of Scrabble, there is none higher, I get eleven points for the word 'quagmire'."

[Cunningham]

People I know respect the group LA Symphony, and their work as solo artists, especially Pigeon John.  Pigeon John is touring with a guy called Lyrics Born who I'd heard of a few times (I think Paste reviewed him well), so I checked him out.  I like his phrasing a lot - I think he's very good.  He also plays with a band.

Wow. I remember hearing alot of buzz about LA Symphony when they were going to get signed by Squint. I hadn't thought about them since that deal went south, but I just bought The End is Now on iTunes and it's really good. Thanks for bringing them up

Weird thing, they're catagorized under rock.

[Andy Whitman]

This is actuallly something that really concerns me right now.  I firmly believe that rock music is dead/dying and that hip-hop is going to replace it. 

Really? "Rock 'n roll may not be dead/But it's gettin' sick" (Larry Norman, 1972)

But as it stands most hip-hop (let alone Christian hip-hop) is sub-par.  The only good stuff comes from the underground ( I agree about deepspace 5 and listener).  I write alot about this on my blog.  http://thethoughtsof...l.blogspot.com/  I've also got a group I'm in called soberminded that's trying to make artistic Christian hip-hop: myspace.com/soberminded . That's not to say that we're good, but we're trying.  I really feel that this is an area that more Christian artists need to explore.

I'm not much of a hip-hop fan, but there's a guy in my church (John Reuben, on Gotee Records) who may be what you're looking for. Here's a review of his latest album: http://www.christian...vsthecynic.html

But I have relatively few points of comparison. Hip-hop is probably the true generational dividing line in popular music. I know very, very few people my age (as in, I can count them on one hand) who like it, even among those who still consider themselves avid music fans, and even among those who have strong backgrounds in jazz, blues, R&B, soul, etc.. And I admit, it's on the periphery of my musical radar. Periodically, somebody comes along (Run D.M.C., The Beastie Boys, Public Enemy, KRS-One, Tribe Called Quest, US3, Guru, The Roots) and piques my interest. I particularly like the jazz-influenced stuff. But overall, it's the musical genre that is most likely to get me to shake my uncomprehending head and mutter "Kids today." That, and Broadway musicals, which my youngest daughter loves. When dad loves punk rock, you have to find other ways to rebel. I've never been to Oklahoma, but I hear the wind comes sweepin' down the plain. Makes me not want to go there.

[opus]

Then there are the more instrumental acts such as DJ Shadow and Prefuse 73.

This is the sort of stuff that floats my boat, especially turntablists like Shadow, DJ Krush, The Avalanches, RJD2, etc.

I'm also a fan of some of the Anticon artists, especially Alias and Clouddead. Their brand of hip-hop is quite a bit more abstract and psychedelic than what people normally associated with hip-hop, but some of their stuff is absolutely mindblowing.

One recent hip-hop CD that I just love is Gift Of Gab's 4th Dimensional Rocketships Going Up. I also like Gab's work with his "main" gig, Blackalicious, but his solo album is just outstanding.

[bvl]

This is actuallly something that really concerns me right now.  I firmly believe that rock music is dead/dying and that hip-hop is going to replace it.  But as it stands most hip-hop (let alone Christian hip-hop) is sub-par.  The only good stuff comes from the underground ( I agree about deepspace 5 and listener).  I write alot about this on my blog.  http://thethoughtsof...l.blogspot.com/  I've also got a group I'm in called soberminded that's trying to make artistic Christian hip-hop: myspace.com/soberminded . That's not to say that we're good, but we're trying.  I really feel that this is an area that more Christian artists need to explore.

Thanks for adding to this thread, and I'll check out your music. I've read a few of your blog posts, too, and it's interesting to see your reasoning.

I don't agree that "the only good stuff comes from the underground", although that's where my personal aesthetic tastes lie. I guess if by "good" you mean "music I personally like to listen to", I would agree. If by "good" you mean "effective at communicating the Gospel or encouraging fellow believers", I disagree.

To some degree, I'm reacting specifically to your post here:

Christian Hip-Hop: Is it viable?

Specifically, I have some concern about these statements:

"I have heard so called “Christian” MCs rapping about how they take the Word of God to tha streets with the same style and music that I have heard secular rappers talk about taking drugs, violence, and sex to tha streets. Can this be anything less than sacrilegious?"

and

"If the rapper is stating that he is a humble servant of God while flowing aggressively over music which is also aggressive, how can he be making art out of love? What is required is a musical sound and a lyrical style that is unique to the Christian worldview"

I wonder, how much of this is your own aesthetic preference and how much if it is based on solid theological ground? What is it about "aggressive" music that cannot contain a Gospel message? What you call "aggressive", another person might call "upbeat" or just "fun".

I invite you to come over to one of the forums I frequent that's specifically about Christian Hip-Hop; Sphere of Hip-Hop. I'll mention this thread there and see if we can get some cross-forum dialogue going.

peace,

Bill

[bvl]

Here's the link to the thread I started on Sphere of Hip-Hop:

thread @ Sphere of Hip-Hop

Plastic, the person who runs the SOHH site, suggested this page that he runs; it offers free mp3 downloads and streams of much of the music discussed on the site.

Sphere of Hip-Hop mp3 page

peace,

bvl

[noneuclidean]

This is actuallly something that really concerns me right now.  I firmly believe that rock music is dead/dying and that hip-hop is going to replace it.  But as it stands most hip-hop (let alone Christian hip-hop) is sub-par.  The only good stuff comes from the underground ( I agree about deepspace 5 and listener).  I write alot about this on my blog.  http://thethoughtsof...l.blogspot.com/  I've also got a group I'm in called soberminded that's trying to make artistic Christian hip-hop: myspace.com/soberminded . That's not to say that we're good, but we're trying.  I really feel that this is an area that more Christian artists need to explore.

Thanks for adding to this thread, and I'll check out your music. I've read a few of your blog posts, too, and it's interesting to see your reasoning.

I don't agree that "the only good stuff comes from the underground", although that's where my personal aesthetic tastes lie. I guess if by "good" you mean "music I personally like to listen to", I would agree. If by "good" you mean "effective at communicating the Gospel or encouraging fellow believers", I disagree.

To some degree, I'm reacting specifically to your post here:

Christian Hip-Hop: Is it viable?

Specifically, I have some concern about these statements:

"I have heard so called “Christian” MCs rapping about how they take the Word of God to tha streets with the same style and music that I have heard secular rappers talk about taking drugs, violence, and sex to tha streets. Can this be anything less than sacrilegious?"

and

"If the rapper is stating that he is a humble servant of God while flowing aggressively over music which is also aggressive, how can he be making art out of love? What is required is a musical sound and a lyrical style that is unique to the Christian worldview"

I wonder, how much of this is your own aesthetic preference and how much if it is based on solid theological ground? What is it about "aggressive" music that cannot contain a Gospel message? What you call "aggressive", another person might call "upbeat" or just "fun".

I invite you to come over to one of the forums I frequent that's specifically about Christian Hip-Hop; Sphere of Hip-Hop. I'll mention this thread there and see if we can get some cross-forum dialogue going.

peace,

Bill

Yes, please check out our music. But again, we're just starting out so if we accomplish 1/50th of what I espouse on my blog, then I will be very surprised and happy. We're trying, with God’s help, to do our best.

To some extent, everything is subjective, but only to some extent. There are some songs which seemed to ride that line between upbeat and fun and aggressive (A lot of Beastie Boys stuff comes to mind). I guess this was a flaw in my writing that I didn't make it clear that I was referring to the style that sounds musically and vocally (I'm talking about tone here) the same as much mainstream and gangsta rap. For instance you wouldn't (at least I hope not) suggest that NWA is just upbeat and fun would you? There is a real and definite difference between fun-aggressive and hateful/selfish-aggressive and that is what I am trying to point to.

Art should always be informed by the worldview and presuppositions of the artist. When 50 raps, his worldview comes through in everything he does from his beats to his delivery to his lyrics. Many times (not all the time), Christian rappers only change the lyrics, as if the beats and their flows somehow transcend connotations, meaning, and attachment to certain beliefs. (If someone wants to make this case then go ahead, but keep in mind that to do this means that beats and delivery are no longer part of the art but are instead some neutral force in the music.) And since you've read my posts you know that I am not suggesting that Christian music sound 100% different, but that there should be fundamental differences.

The differences I'm suggesting are no different from the differences between any artistic movements. For example, the Romantic poets still wrote poetry, they still rhymed (often), they still spoke on topics that affected the people of their day, yet they were different from the Restoration poets that preceded them. In the same way, Christian rappers can use beats, they can rap, they can speak on issues that are similar to the ones secular artists deal with, but there should be something different.

We can see this difference happening in hip-hop already. Anticon, who someone else already brought up, is paving the way for artistic rap that is founded (at least with some of the artists on this label) on post-modernism. Dose One in particular makes music that is different from what you hear on the radio because his worldview is different. He does not buy into the materialism and sexism of commercial hip-hop so his music is different, from his beats to his flows to his lyrics. Why is it so difficult for Christian artists to do the same?

The only excuse for Christian rappers sounding like secular ones is if they are trying to lure unbelievers into hearing the Word. But I believe that this excuse is born of laziness. Why should it be impossible to create music that is distinctive to the Christian worldview (and when I say distinctive, I am not advocating different for different's sake, I mean a difference that comes from our beliefs-like any good art) and at the same time something that non-Christians would like to hear and that could witness to them? It is not impossible, but it does require creativity, God's Will, and a desire to create with excellence for God rather than for man.

So, in conclusion, I stand by what I said: Christian rappers should not use the same style and sound as secular rappers because our beliefs are profoundly different and to ignore this difference musically amounts to laziness and artistic dishonesty. That said, I would suggest that what we might be disagreeing on has more to do with our understanding of "aggressive" (a point that you made actually). And to tell you the truth, I would be hard pressed to give specific guidelines on how different the music should be. The only way for an artist or listener to know whether they are making music that accurately reflects their beliefs is to critically examine the music on a song-by-song basis and through prayer. In addition, sometimes we should be aggressive about certain topics, passion can be a very good thing! But should our righteous passion sound musically the same as someone else’s passion for bloodshed and rape? Should only the lyrics be different?

p.s.
When I said "only the underground was good" it was probably a hyperbole, although I honestly cannot think of many/any good hip-hop in the mainstream for the last few years (except maybe Common and DJ Shadow).


http://thethoughtsof...l.blogspot.com/

[Sam Sharpe]

"I have heard so called “Christian” MCs rapping about how they take the Word of God to tha streets with the same style and music that I have heard secular rappers talk about taking drugs, violence, and sex to tha streets. Can this be anything less than sacrilegious?"



Just because you put sex in a movie scene doesn't make it sexy. Seems like you could put Jesus in a lyric or "out in the Street" and you could get the same result.

[noneuclidean]

"I have heard so called “Christian” MCs rapping about how they take the Word of God to tha streets with the same style and music that I have heard secular rappers talk about taking drugs, violence, and sex to tha streets. Can this be anything less than sacrilegious?"



Just because you put sex in a movie scene doesn't make it sexy.  Seems like you could put Jesus in a lyric or "out in the Street" and you could get the same result.

In a way, I agree with what your saying. What I'm talking about is style not so much content. I believe you could discuss, for instance, sex in a song about teen pregnancy and the suffering it causes, but the style you use could keep it from being "sexy." But in the example here, and the one you gave, it was the way they portrayed sex (I.E. the style) that made it not "sexy." Therefore there was an unity between form (style) and theme (the theme of teen sex leading to sorrow and suffering and the style that does not glorify the sex). In the same way, if you have a song about Jesus the style should fit the theme. And if the style is suggestive of hate and pride, then it doesn't fit the theme of Christ. Just like if the un-sexy movie used a style that was similar to that used in porn films it clearly would be sexy and then the theme of teen pregnancy would be lost. I hope that helps.

Peace and God Bless,
non_euc.

If anyone wanted to listen to the Hip-Hop project I'm working on, here's the link;
http://www.myspace.com/soberminded . As I've stated in every post so far, we do not live up to the standard that I claim in my blog. Why? Because we're just starting and we have a lot of growing to do. But we are trying and any advice or comments would be wonderful.