32 replies to this topic

[Ann D.]

I received my book from Amazon.com and read a few pages. It looks interesting, but I'm not much of one to get involved in theological debates. But I'll read and post some thoughts. One thing I'm confused about--are the authors both involved the Jesus Seminar, but one is liberal and one is conservative? Or is only one?

Anyway, if anyone is still interested in reading this book and discussing it, please post here. We'll figure out the format as we go along.

[MattPage]

Only Borg is involved in the Jesus Seminar - Wright is very much anti it.

See his critique - here

Matt

[Peter T Chattaway]

FWIW, links to a few articles of mine on Borg & Wright:

Two visions of Jesus in one book -- BC Christian News, May 1999
Theologians debate authority, interpretation of Scripture -- Anglican Journal, January 2000

Also, there's a relevant bit in this July 1997 interview that I did with Wright for BC Christian News (then known as Christian Info News):

CIN: Second of the three. You've talked about your friendship with Marcus Borg [like John Dominic Crossan, a member of the Jesus Seminar], and in your book you mention that Marcus Borg's faith has been strengthened by his scholarship. He would call himself a Christian . . .

NTW: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Very deeply.

CIN: . . . but he takes some very different positions from yours, both historically and theologically. So, to coin a phrase, how "historically correct" or "theologically correct" should a Christian be?

NTW: "Should"? We are all struggling to love God with our minds, and we all fail in that in many, many, many ways, and we all need one another to help one another to grow in the love of God with our minds, just like we need all sorts of help to love God in all sorts of other ways as well.
As a historian, it's impossible for me to both believe that I have put this together right and that I haven't put it together right. And if I've put it together right, or even half-right, then at least half of what Marc says hasn't quite got it yet.
But I would want to say, as Christians, we are both on a continuum, and there may be all sorts of other ways in which his love of God is vastly superior to mine and I need to learn a great deal from him. And that's part of the deal, part of the game, and that takes humility and hope and a lot of other things, besides.

I also wrote an article on a joint series of lectures that they did at Regent College in 1995, which I could probably dig up -- that was in the days before websites, so there is no version of it online, at least not that I'm aware of.

[Ann D.]

In the introduction (which is as far as I've gotten, heh), the authors stated that each may have a piece of truth, and each may have a piece of it wrong, and that they are prepared for that possibility. That takes some real humility to go into a conversation with a strong stance, yet fully prepared to admit they may be wrong and the other right.

Edited by Ann D., 19 May 2006 - 03:46 PM.

[Crow]

I've just ordered by copy from Amazon, so I'm looking forward to joining in.

[ruthie]

I've got to wait on the silly person who has an overdue copy at the local library to return theirs, but I am looking forward to jumping in when it comes.

[Buckeye Jones]

I'll hunt down my copy; of course, since I pushed this one, I'm in.

[Buckeye Jones]

Okay, so how's everyone coming along? I'll give it the old college try this weekend to get some questions to start the discussion.

Remember, the proof of the pudding's in the eating.

[ruthie]

After several days of running about with and over-due book, whoever preceded me has now returned the captive book to the library! I shall start reading this weekend as well!

[Buckeye Jones]

Aghh! I failed to find my book. Now I am looking in the obscure corners of the house (did we pack it away when we moved two years ago? Have I reread part of it randomly and then left it laying around to be misplaced?). After that, I'll assume I lent it out to someone (and hopefully not my brother in law, a continent and ocean away!).

So, if anyone else wants to get this discussion rolling, please do!

[Buckeye Jones]

So I can't find my copy anywhere. I joined the library this morning and hope to have the book in my hands by the end of the week.

I like Alan's suggestion too, but my wife refuses to give me her Border's gift card so I can buy a book I already own.

[stu]

So I can't find my copy anywhere.

Let me help: have you tried thinking back to where you had it last?

My copy is on the floor just to the left of my bed, underneath a dirty t-shirt, surrounded by cds. I read the first chapter, but then I left my glasses in Iceland and won't get a new pair until next week. How's that for an excuse?

I do plan to read this, though.

[Peter T Chattaway]

FWIW, I'm actually curious to see if this book still feels "current" to people who are reading it now for the first time, or if it seems "dated" in any way. It originally came out over seven years ago, in the late '90s, in a decade that was replete with historical-Jesus books at both the scholastic and popular level. I read it within that context, as one who had read multiple other books by Wright and Borg, as well as books by Crossan and Mack and others -- but I haven't really followed the field all that closely for the last few years.

[MattPage]

[I read the first chapter, but then I left my glasses in Iceland and won't get a new pair until next week.

For someone who's about to embark on a Ph.D you're really stupid sometimes

Matt

[Buckeye Jones]

[I read the first chapter, but then I left my glasses in Iceland and won't get a new pair until next week.

For someone who's about to embark on a Ph.D you're really stupid sometimes

Matt

Yeah, like, who goes to Iceland? Its, like, cold there. Don't you get enough gloom and muck in the UK?

[MattPage]

Well at this time of year the gloom at least is at a minimum. In fact Stu was saying that it never got darkjust a little dim at "night".

Matt

[Ann D.]

I have my copy, but haven't gotten past the first chapter. Vacation, new dog, and a really nasty class at school has had me swamped the past few weeks.

I'll try to read and post as I can.

[stu]

Well at this time of year the gloom at least is at a minimum. In fact Stu was saying that it never got darkjust a little dim at "night".

Matt

That's right, "yes". No actual dark"ness", just what one might call "dim"ness. But enough with all this questionable use of punctuation"!"

I am most of the way through chapter three, which is N.T Wright's second chapter. I'm finding it a little frustrating, because I feel that I don't know enough about the subject to read the material critically. I am, however, picking up that Wright is certainly not someone you should enter into debate with unless you've really thought it through. He hasn't used the phrase "tissue of nonsense" so far though, but I'm still hoping for a late appearance.

I think somewhere in my mind I was hoping that reading a book like this would solve all the problems I have with reconciling my ideas of a historical figure with my unpredictible experiences of something that seems very much like a living person. So far, it seems that this book is about what living with this problem looks like, and allowing the tension to become fruitful.

I'll hopefully post something more specific when I've read more.


p.s. Buckeye Jones: "gloom and muck"?! What books have you been reading? Everything is shiny over here. Even the dirt is shiny. We have to shower three times a day just to take the glare off things.

[Buckeye Jones]

Thanks to the Hamilton County Public Library, I'm now re-armed with a copy of TMOJ. Since a common failing of mine is to assume the world revolves around me, should we kick things off now?

[stu]

I'm beginning to get a couple of ongoing questions about the two basic positions, so could post some thoughts once a few people have read a few chapters.