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Jennifer Knapp


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Is celibacy outside of marriage a "general expectation" in the CCM world, or is it essentially kind of optional?

Well, I do recall reading that when Leslie-Sam Phillips-Burnett sought release from her recording contract with Word, she offered up the fact that she'd had non-marital sex with T Bone Burnett (premarital for her and, I believe, extramarital for him) as a reason that the contract should be dissolved.

And of course Scott Douglas lost his job as lead singer of Whiteheart upon the revelation that he'd had sex with two underage girls. (He also was subject to criminal penalties, and served some jail time IIRC.)

I should like to think that single CCM artists, as a rule, aren't banging groupies in their hotel rooms when they're out on tour. I still have horrible guilt over the wild orgies I engaged in while on the road backing up a minor CCM artist. But, you see, there were so many girls I just couldn't fight all of them off.

(OK, bad joke.)

Let's Carl the whole thing Orff!

Do you know the deep dark secret of the avatars?

It's big. It's fat. It's Greek.

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More lesbians, fewer women tempting the young men. ;)

That'll just lead to more artists like Shawn Thomas, Jason & deMarco, et al. To say nothing of Ray Boltzes and Doug Pinnicks. :blink:

All kidding aside, according to whatever I can discern from my few remaining tenuous connections to CCM, a commitment to the customary conservative/evangelical standards of sexual purity is still expected of CCM artists ... unless they're involved in some specifically gay-friendly operation like the artists I've just linked to.

Edited by mrmando

Let's Carl the whole thing Orff!

Do you know the deep dark secret of the avatars?

It's big. It's fat. It's Greek.

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Nezpop wrote:

: I thought celibacy was not being married, chastity being the abstaining until marriage.

Well, we can play the definition game all we like, I guess. But suffice it to say that I don't think Knapp had "ten years of not being married" in mind when she referred to "a decade of celibacy".

Joel wrote:

: Review of Knapp/Webb show (with special guests Hanson! That Hanson!) . . .

Aha, yet another set of real-life Christians who never get pigeonholed as such because they work in the "real" music industry.

mrmando wrote:

: Well, I do recall reading that when Leslie-Sam Phillips-Burnett sought release from her recording contract with Word, she offered up the fact that she'd had non-marital sex with T Bone Burnett (premarital for her and, I believe, extramarital for him) as a reason that the contract should be dissolved.

I recall reading something similar, though [a] I don't recall her saying who, exactly, she had slept with, and I recall her saying something to the effect that everyone in CCM was doing it anyway, and it was only her threat of going public with it that compelled Word to release her from her contract.

: I should like to think that single CCM artists, as a rule, aren't banging groupies in their hotel rooms when they're out on tour.

Well, I did hear about one guy ... and I heard it from the person who booked the gig in question (and by "gig" I mean the concert, not the groupie) ... but that was some time ago, and I don't believe my source was actually there in the hotel room when it happened or anything quite like that ... so it's all hearsay and speculation anyway ...

I'm also vaguely flashing back to something I read about Mike Warnke way back when ... something related to the fact that he was on his third or fourth wife at the height of his CCM fame ... (not that he was a musician, per se, but his comedy albums were released on CCM labels) ...

"Sympathy must precede belligerence. First I must understand the other, as it were, from the inside; then I can critique it from the outside. So many people skip right to the latter." -- Steven D. Greydanus
Now blogging at Patheos.com. I can also still be found at Facebook, Twitter and Flickr. See also my film journal.

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I recall reading something similar, though [a] I don't recall her saying who, exactly, she had slept with,

I may be guilty of reading between the lines a bit, but I didn't think she meant she was banging the pool boy.

I'm also vaguely flashing back to something I read about Mike Warnke way back when ... something related to the fact that he was on his third or fourth wife at the height of his CCM fame ... (not that he was a musician, per se, but his comedy albums were released on CCM labels) ...

I have my old copy of Selling Satan by Trott/Hertenstein up here on the shelf of used books I'm trying to sell. Your recollection is correct. He's on #5 or #6 currently.

There are other famous incidents of CCM artists adulterating/fornicating, and those are just the ones who got caught ... so it's safe to assume that it can & does happen, just as it happens with clergy members and ordinary everyday Christians. As Andy observes, a guy (or gal) doesn't become a hyper-spiritual, doctrinally flawless, temptation-proof Christian just because you hand him (or her) a guitar. The artist I used to back up did tour with his fiancee as a band member, but they always had separate hotel rooms until they got married. I never witnessed or participated in anything improper.

The following has nothing to do with CCM, but ...

I don't know if you recall seeing me in A Most Notorious Woman at Pacific Theatre, Peter ... but after a performance of that play in L.A., two attractive females did invite me back to their apartment. I can't say for sure what they might have had in mind, but being both married and a Christian, I turned down the invitation. Only time that's ever happened. Although I did once have a very memorable, highly charged romantic encounter following a solo concert I played in Fort Collins.

But that was with my wife.

Edited by mrmando

Let's Carl the whole thing Orff!

Do you know the deep dark secret of the avatars?

It's big. It's fat. It's Greek.

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I experienced a decade (90s) of hanging out in ccm and "secular" band circuits around the globe, and honestly didn't see much sleeping around, but then again I wasn't looking to see it. Personally, I was so close with my own band mates that I looked forward to hanging out with them after shows instead of trying to track down a -- whatever you want to call it. I've hung with many groups that have been mentioned here, more than I like to admit to because when I actually begin talking about it I get the feeling that no one belives me, or that they think I'm trying to show off. All of that to say, that in ten years of this lifestyle, about the worst thing I saw was way too much drinking, of which at certain points I was a part, and which really came back to bite me later in life. But even that was only from a select few. (There's only one ccm band that I can think of that drank *all* the time, but then again, they were Irish, and most of you probably haven't heard of them.)

Most were actively seeking relationships, and if they were struggling sexually, it was in a relationship. Which is at least a better struggle than trying to find a groupie for your hotel room. Even the "secular" bands I met that I knew were attempting this -- known bands -- weren't always successful, because these kinds of things were more common in the 60s before STDs and AIDS scared the sexual crap out of everyone.

As to Jennifer Knapp, I am so conflicted. I have been raised to think that homosexuality is wrong, but a lot about the faith I was raised in I find wrong, too. I am open to a re-reading of Romans, but sometimes wonder if the only reason we want to read it is to declare freedom for homosexual Christians. I can't land one way or another, and don't know that I need to. What I know is that when I meet a homosexual, I want to love them the way that Christ loved me, and as I previously mentioned, my sexual issues are what I need to pay attention to, not theirs.

I never met Ms. Knapp, but I'll be praying for her, and I'll probably buy the record, too. I have three of hers (maybe she only did three major records? Can't remember), and I thought she was terrific in her day. Let her spill her guts and continue to seek God about it. I'm sure she's going through a lot of heartache right now.

Edited by Persona

In an interstellar burst, I am back to save the Universe.

Filmsweep by Persona. 2013 Film Journal. IlPersona.

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Let her spill her guts and continue to seek God about it. I'm sure she's going through a lot of heartache right now.

The empathy is nice, but--speaking only for myself and my observations of others--coming out, especially when you have a strong support system-- is typically a really joyful experience. Unless you're still in high school/living with parents who reject you--newly out people are usually much much happier than they've ever been.

This seems true of Knapp who is apparently miles past any internal conflict she might once have felt.

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Maybe "hurt" rather than "heartache." It's naive to think that reading all the comments below the Moring article wouldn't hurt, or that Christians around her won't dump her like a bad piece of meat now that she's dragged all her stuff into the light. It's also naive to think that it's all smiles and flowers whenever you "come out" of anything that's considered a sin. Those who you thought were your friends don't contact you. You hear more about yourself from people you really don't know than you do from what you thought were friends. It might be joyous and freeing to make an announcement like this, but it's not pure joy to announce this to thousands upon thousands of people and then deal with the leftover resentments.

I'm sure she will only remain friends in certain circles, otherwise she is now a target with a capital "T".

Edited by Persona

In an interstellar burst, I am back to save the Universe.

Filmsweep by Persona. 2013 Film Journal. IlPersona.

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Huh. I just discovered that the bassist for a couple of Christian punk bands that I listened to in the '80s and early '90s has been "married" to another guy (an interior designer, no less) since around '94. So says his Facebook page, at any rate.

(And no, this did not come up because of the Jennifer Knapp debate. He happened to post a comment on somebody else's wall while discussing some OTHER current news item. But I got curious and followed the link back to his page, and voila.)

Is anyone keeping a list of all the gay CCM musicians somewhere? It's getting to the point where I can't rely on memory alone.

Edited by Peter T Chattaway

"Sympathy must precede belligerence. First I must understand the other, as it were, from the inside; then I can critique it from the outside. So many people skip right to the latter." -- Steven D. Greydanus
Now blogging at Patheos.com. I can also still be found at Facebook, Twitter and Flickr. See also my film journal.

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Next up: Sufjan Stevens.

People say he's got to be gay, and it's usually based on a completely wack intepretation of "The Predatory Wasp of the Palisades Is Out to Get Us!" I mean, c'mon: He gives us two clues in the first three lines that the narrator is a girl ("I write in cursive"; "wearing...leg warmers").

Not that I know he's not gay, but people's reason for thinking so is stupid.

Dale

Edited by M. Dale Prins

Metalfoot on Emmanuel Shall Come to Thee's Noel: "...this album is...monotony...bland, tripy fare..."

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Next up: Sufjan Stevens.

People say he's got to be gay, and it's usually based on a completely wack intepretation of "The Predatory Wasp of the Palisades Is Out to Get Us!" I mean, c'mon: He gives us two clues in the first three lines that the narrator is a girl ("I write in cursive"; "wearing...leg warmers").

Not that I know he's not gay, but people's reason for thinking so is stupid.

Dale

People just picture a guy in leg warmers writing in cursive.

Everything that matters is invisible.

-- Robert Bresson

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People just picture a guy in leg warmers writing in cursive.

And in "To Be Alone With You" they see Sufjan being in love with guy who likes climb trees.

Dale, who isn't completely sure he's making this up

Metalfoot on Emmanuel Shall Come to Thee's Noel: "...this album is...monotony...bland, tripy fare..."

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Writing in cursive makes you a girl? 8O

Not that I'm sure he's gay, but I would not at all be surprised!

John Wayne Gacy Jr, Casimir Pulaski Day, The Man of Metropolis Steals Our Hearts, The Predatory Wasp of the Palisades, To Be Alone With You, and Size Too Small all give me gay vibes.

Otherwise, hi! I haven't posted on this board in like 2 years. Obviously Jennifer Knapp coming out was the reason for my return. ::blushing::

I reason, Earth is short -

And Anguish - absolute -

And many hurt,

But, what of that?

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I don't know about Sufjan, but this has been a long time coming.

"The things we enjoy are channels through which the divine glory strikes us, and those who love and delight in any good thing may yet learn to love God." --Gilbert Meilaender

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Greg, what are you saying? Metrosexual, or what? BTW, "U.F.C. fighter in witness protection?" What three amateur screenwriters got drunk and decided to workshop a concept together in an allnighter?

"During the contest trial, the Coleman team presented evidence of a further 6500 absentees that it felt deserved to be included under the process that had produced the prior 933 [submitted by Franken, rk]. The three judges finally defined what constituted a 'legal' absentee ballot. Countable ballots, for instance, had to contain the signature of the voter, complete registration information, and proper witness credentials.

But the panel only applied the standards going forward, severely reducing the universe of additional basentees the Coleman team could hope to have included. In the end, the three judges allowed about 350 additional absentees to be counted. The panel also did nothing about the hundreds, possibly thousands, of absentees that have already been legally included, yet are now 'illegal' according to the panel's own ex-post definition."

The Wall Street Journal editorial, April 18, 2009 concerning the Franken Coleman decision in the Minnesota U.S. Senate race of 2008.

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Greg P - I've seen some odd bios. on artists' sites, but never one quite like Carman's. ;) the wink isn't about his sexuality, either... I mean, I know he's from Philly, but dropping a Mafiosi's name in his bio. is just... Rich, I think you're onto something re. drunken screenwriters!

Very strange. (But then, CCM is something I've been avoiding since around 1985, so maybe it's just culture shock hitting me?!)

Nope, not just culture shock. Most people in CCM see this for what it is too. I've heard stories from a friend who was on the same label as Carman when R.I.O.T. came out about the reactions in the board room when he presented that idea.

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Writing in cursive makes you a girl? 8O

Yes. All people who have ever written in cursive are girls.

No, but it's not the type of thing you would usually mention at the top of a song unless you were ensure your audience knew that your protagonist was either (a) a girl or (B) a writer. And which one Sufjan was aiming for is completely clear in my eyes ears.

John Wayne Gacy Jr, Casimir Pulaski Day, The Man of Metropolis Steals Our Hearts, The Predatory Wasp of the Palisades, To Be Alone With You, and Size Too Small all give me gay vibes.

Uh. Other than the one I've already discussed, two of those songs are obviously about Jesus, one involves a hetrosexual protag almost getting to second base, and one can only be used to establish Stevens as gay only if it can also be used to establish him as a serial murderer. And then there's "Size Too Small," in which I really have no idea what Stevens was trying to say and thus don't really have a rejoinder.

Again, I'm not saying he's not gay, especially since my (ugh) "gaydar" is nonexistent save for gays outer than Jack on "Will & Grace." But man, I really, really don't see anything lyrically to make anyone think he is.

Dale

Edited by M. Dale Prins

Metalfoot on Emmanuel Shall Come to Thee's Noel: "...this album is...monotony...bland, tripy fare..."

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Back in college I sang Daniel Pinkham's Wedding Cantata with the concert choir. It's a setting of texts from the Song of Solomon. At one point the basses and tenors (that includes me) sing, forte:

Awake, O north wind, and come thou south,

Blow upon my garden, that the spices may flow out,

That the spices flow out.

Let my beloved come into his garden

And eat his pleasant fruits.

But last time I checked, I still wasn't gay*.

Funny thing.

*But on the other hand, Pinkham was, and so, as it turned out, was the choir director who chose the piece for us to sing.

Edited by mrmando

Let's Carl the whole thing Orff!

Do you know the deep dark secret of the avatars?

It's big. It's fat. It's Greek.

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