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Top 100 2011: Results and Discussion


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Also, please brainstorm with me: What has our list never included, or underrepresented, that we ought to include? (I'm writing another substantial piece on the Top 100, for First Things.) I know we've talked about this before, but help me out and let's recap.

I know we've talked about the underrepresentation of black filmmakers and subjects. Have we ever included a Spike Lee film? Should we? Do The Right Thing? Something else? Other black/minority filmmakers/films we've neglected?

Has The Tree of Wooden Clogs ever been on any list? By which I mean is it on the 2006 list? It isn't on any of the others. I plan to campaign for it for 2012.

Have we never included Raiders of the Lost Ark? Monsieur Vincent? Grand Illusion? Judgment at Nuremberg? More fodder for next year's list...

New films I greatly hope will be on the 2012 list: Waste Land (better than Born into Brothels), Of Gods and Men. True Grit? Yeah, maybe.

Nice that we have Brad Bird on the list, but did we choose the right film? Maybe The Incredibles instead of The Iron Giant? (Have we ever included any Pixar?

All ideas appreciated. Help me finish this piece today!

Edited by SDG

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I have another list request for our listmeisters.

Dale has compiled a list of the 25 films unique to this year's list. Can we also see the films unique to previous years?

2010:

22. Serious Man, A

39. Through a Glass Darkly

40. House is Black,The

48. Killer of Sheep

50. Cyclist, The

60. Fanny and Alexander

64. Beau Travail

66. By Brakhage: An Anthology

67. Lorna's Silence

79. Meshes in the Afternoon

89. Ushpizin

90. Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher

91. Au Revoir, Les Enfants

92. Son of Man

94. In Praise of Love

97. M. Hulot's Holiday

2006:

70. Stromboli

74. Black Robe

89. Argent, L'

92. Molokai: The Story of Father Damien

2005:

34. Europa '51

76. Believer, The

89. Trip to Bountiful, The

94. Silence, The

99. In America

2004:

American Beauty

Bad Lieutenant

Blade Runner

Changing Lanes

Dogma

Dolce Vita, La

Fight Club

Grand Canyon

Groundhog Day

Henry V

Last Days of Disco, The

Life Of Brian, The

Man Without A Past, The

Matrix, The

On The Waterfront

Prince Of Egypt, The

Signs

Sixth Sense, The

Songs From the Second Floor

Star Wars original trilogy

Truman Show, The

Vanya on 42nd Street

Witness

Dale

Edited by M. Dale Prins

Metalfoot on Emmanuel Shall Come to Thee's Noel: "...this album is...monotony...bland, tripy fare..."

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Thanks, Dale. You rawk.

Everyone else ... thoughts?

Also, please brainstorm with me: What has our list never included, or underrepresented, that we ought to include? (I'm writing another substantial piece on the Top 100, for First Things.) I know we've talked about this before, but help me out and let's recap.

I know we've talked about the underrepresentation of black filmmakers and subjects. Have we ever included a Spike Lee film? Should we? Do The Right Thing? Something else? Other black/minority filmmakers/films we've neglected?

Has The Tree of Wooden Clogs ever been on any list? By which I mean is it on the 2006 list? It isn't on any of the others. I plan to campaign for it for 2012.

Have we never included Raiders of the Lost Ark? Monsieur Vincent? Grand Illusion? Judgment at Nuremberg? More fodder for next year's list...

New films I greatly hope will be on the 2012 list: Waste Land (better than Born into Brothels), Of Gods and Men. True Grit? Yeah, maybe.

Nice that we have Brad Bird on the list, but did we choose the right film? Maybe The Incredibles instead of The Iron Giant? (Have we ever included any Pixar?

All ideas appreciated. Help me finish this piece today!

“I write because I don’t know what I think until I read what I say.” — Flannery O'Connor

Writing at the new Decent Films | Follow me on Twitter and Facebook

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Have we never included Raiders of the Lost Ark? Monsieur Vincent? Grand Illusion? Judgment at Nuremberg? More fodder for next year's list...

I'd be interested to see whether RAIDERS could make the cut. It would be kinda nice, if only for variety's sake, to have an action film on the list, and I can't think of any others that would be appropriate. That said, I do think there are a few Spielberg flicks more appropriate to our list's raison d'être (CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND and ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, especially).

And personally, if we're set on having a musical on the list, I think we'd do well to have THE THREEPENNY OPERA or CABARET on the list. I imagine most here probably haven't seen THE THREEPENNY OPERA, which is a shame. It's a remarkable film.

I'll be interested to see if we'll be able to manage any crossover between our Top 25 Horror and our 2013 Top 100 (if I recall correctly, we won't have a 2012 list; it was seemingly decided that the Top 100 list would become biennial, and we would use shorter lists, like the Top 25 Horror, to fill in the gaps).

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Also, please brainstorm with me: What has our list never included, or underrepresented, that we ought to include? (I'm writing another substantial piece on the Top 100, for First Things.) I know we've talked about this before, but help me out and let's recap.

Link to the thread on Citizen Kane.

Nice that we have Brad Bird on the list,

Seriously? You sure about that? It's certainly up for debate.

but did we choose the right film? Maybe The Incredibles instead of The Iron Giant? (Have we ever included any Pixar?

How about we make a Top 25 of animated films so we can get back some of the decent films we lost with their inclusion?

I am doing a 180 on this year's list. It includes a lot of ideas rather than real opinions, ideas about what we should include to make it more accessible. In making it more accessible, it's been dumbed down quite a bit.

In an interstellar burst, I am back to save the Universe.

Filmsweep by Persona. 2013 Film Journal. IlPersona.

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It includes a lot of ideas rather than real opinions, ideas about what we should include to make it more accessible.

I thought the goal wasn't necessarily to make the list more accessible, but more representative of the broad legacy of cinematic art. This list makes an attempt at that. Sure, there are certain films I'd substitute for others, but even I'd sooner see, say, THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE make the list than THE SEARCHERS, I'm nevertheless glad that we got a landmark Western onto the list.

In making it more accessible, it's been dumbed down quite a bit.

Only a few new entries qualify as "dumbing down the list," if you ask me (THE IRON GIANT, I'm lookin' at you). The majority of the new additions are quite welcome.

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How about we make a Top 25 of animated films so we can get back some of the decent films we lost with their inclusion?

I'm all in favor of a Top 25 animated films, but like the Oscar for Best Animated Feature in relation to Best Picture, it shouldn't mean that truly top-100 animated films should be downgraded for consideration for the Top 100 list. The Miracle Maker belongs on both lists, in my opinion. So does Spirited Away, and, I would argue, The Incredibles.

I am doing a 180 on this year's list. It includes a lot of ideas rather than real opinions, ideas about what we should include to make it more accessible. In making it more accessible, it's been dumbed down quite a bit.

Uh huh. So, what, after making Top 25 Comedies, Top 25 Westerns, Top 25 Family Films, etc., we can finally have a Top 100 list that's 100 percent subtitled art-house fare? If that's the case, shouldn't we just retitle the list "Top 100 Art-House Films as Picked by People Who Really Like Bresson, Tarkovsky, Bergman, Kieslowski and the Dardennes"?

I didn't vote for any movies with the intention of making the list more "accessible." I do think that a good list should be comprehensive, broad in scope, "catholic" with a small c. I think it should include the best of the widest possible variety of films, and that includes Golden Age Hollywood, animation, comedies and musicals as well as foreign art-house fare.

If you made up a list of the top 100 wines on the market, and 85 percent of them were dry reds from France and Italy, I'd think you weren't casting your net wide enough. Last year's list had that problem. No list is perfect, and this year's list is open to many possible criticisms, but "We dumbed it down by making it only 65 percent dry reds from France and Italy" is not a very good criticism.

Edited by SDG

“I write because I don’t know what I think until I read what I say.” — Flannery O'Connor

Writing at the new Decent Films | Follow me on Twitter and Facebook

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I'm all in favor of a Top 25 animated films, but like the Oscar for Best Animated Feature in relation to Best Picture, it shouldn't mean that truly top-100 animated films should be downgraded for consideration for the Top 100 list. The Miracle Maker belongs on both lists, in my opinion. So does Spirited Away, and, I would argue, The Incredibles.

I agree in theory. There is no reason animation should somehow be off limits, and I suspect it's just Stef's anti-animation sentiment flaring up again.

That said, I'm on record as thinking that THE MIRACLE MAKER and THE IRON GIANT doesn't make the grade, and I don't think THE INCREDIBLES deserves to make the cut. In fact, no Pixar film is Top 100 worthy.

If you made up a list of the top 100 wines on the market, and 85 percent of them were dry reds from France and Italy, I'd think you weren't casting your net wide enough. Last year's list had that problem. No list is perfect, and this year's list is open to many possible criticisms, but "We dumbed it down by making it only 65 percent dry reds from France and Italy" is not a very good criticism.

As a devoted wine enthusiast, I approve of this analogy.

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Also, please brainstorm with me: What has our list never included, or underrepresented, that we ought to include? (I'm writing another substantial piece on the Top 100, for First Things.) I know we've talked about this before, but help me out and let's recap.

The one I long to someday make the list is Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter...and Spring, but I'm not holding my breath.

A foreign movie can't be stupid.

-from the film
Armin

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No list is perfect, and this year's list is open to many possible criticisms, but "We dumbed it down by making it only 65 percent dry reds from France and Italy" is not a very good criticism.

Well, you have said that, not me.

Right now it is a general feeling I have, and I stand by it. The prime example that I've realized in the last few weeks is that The Iron Giant is on the list. Having seen Citizen Kane on the big screen yesterday and realizing it isn't on the list, and then taking a look, as I noted in that thread, at many, many other films that ARE on the list, including other Welles films, including other animations, including other classic Hollywood films, and yes, including my own nomination, it feels very much like we have missed the boat.

That is just one example. It would take a long time to really dive into the new list and bring out all the examples. I may do that over the next few weeks or months, I don't know. If I do, I probably need to create a different thread.

I'm all in favor of a Top 25 animated films, but like the Oscar for Best Animated Feature in relation to Best Picture, it shouldn't mean that truly top-100 animated films should be downgraded for consideration for the Top 100 list. The Miracle Maker belongs on both lists, in my opinion. So does Spirited Away, and, I would argue, The Incredibles.

I agree in theory. There is no reason animation should somehow be off limits, and I suspect it's just Stef's anti-animation sentiment flaring up again.

That is a part of it. It also has to do with Brakhage, and the replacing of serious films with family fare. But like I said, I need time with it to go into specifics of how I feel. At the moment this is a general feeling.

That said, I'm on record as thinking that THE MIRACLE MAKER and THE IRON GIANT doesn't make the grade, and I don't think THE INCREDIBLES deserves to make the cut. In fact, no Pixar film is Top 100 worthy.

I campaigned for The Miracle Maker but would gladly leave it off the list to leave off animation in general.

Seriously, SDG? You would attach The Incredibles to this list in front of Citizen Kane?

In an interstellar burst, I am back to save the Universe.

Filmsweep by Persona. 2013 Film Journal. IlPersona.

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Having seen Citizen Kane on the big screen yesterday and realizing it isn't on the list, and then taking a look, as I noted in that thread, at many, many other films that ARE on the list, including other Welles films, including other animations, including other classic Hollywood films, and yes, including my own nomination, it feels very much like we have missed the boat.

Well, then, the question becomes are TOUCH OF EVIL, THE TRIAL, VERTIGO, et al., better or worse than CITIZEN KANE? And I'd say they're better, so I'm happy as a clam.

It also has to do with Brakhage, and the replacing of serious films with family fare.

The implication being that "family fare" cannot be as valuable as "serious films." An opinion I don't necessarily share. And Brakhage was eliminated because of the "short film" rule, if I recall, not because of some preference for other kinds of cinema.

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Having seen Citizen Kane on the big screen yesterday and realizing it isn't on the list, and then taking a look, as I noted in that thread, at many, many other films that ARE on the list, including other Welles films, including other animations, including other classic Hollywood films, and yes, including my own nomination, it feels very much like we have missed the boat.

Well, then, the question becomes are TOUCH OF EVIL, THE TRIAL, VERTIGO, et al., better or worse than CITIZEN KANE? And I'd say they're better, so I'm happy as a clam.

I think the question should become: Are all of those films weaker than the five animations on the list? How about this: are all of those films lesser than Make Way For Tomorrow?

It also has to do with Brakhage, and the replacing of serious films with family fare.

The implication being that "family fare" cannot be as valuable as "serious films." An opinion I don't necessarily share. And Brakhage was eliminated because of the "short film" rule, if I recall, not because of some preference for other kinds of cinema.

A gaping hole in thought. I wish I'd been around more at Christmastime to better think through the nomination process.

In an interstellar burst, I am back to save the Universe.

Filmsweep by Persona. 2013 Film Journal. IlPersona.

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Was Citizen Kane even nominated? I think I nominated it for the 2010 list. But I didn't nominate it for the 2011 list.

Seems to me that the nomination process needs tweaked, at least opening it up a good 6 months in advance so that we have more time to build in candidates would be helpful.

But I am not in favor of exluding animation from the list; just disappointed that I forgot to nominate "Transformers: The Movie".

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Right now it is a general feeling I have, and I stand by it. The prime example that I've realized in the last few weeks is that The Iron Giant is on the list. Having seen Citizen Kane on the big screen yesterday and realizing it isn't on the list, and then taking a look, as I noted in that thread, at many, many other films that ARE on the list, including other Welles films, including other animations, including other classic Hollywood films, and yes, including my own nomination, it feels very much like we have missed the boat.

Every list, especially one as sweeping as this, misses boats. You always miss more boats than you catch. That's the nature of a list. I'm chagrined to realize we've never included The Tree of Wooden Clogs. That's a ginormous oversight in my book, and I'm as guilty as anyone. That doesn't change the fact that we've got a list we can be proud of.

That is a part of it. It also has to do with Brakhage, and the replacing of serious films with family fare.

I think last year's list was too serious, frankly. I'm serious. It's disproportionate to the human condition. Is "serious" better than "not serious"? Are comedies inherently not great?

I campaigned for The Miracle Maker but would gladly leave it off the list to leave off animation in general.

That's a frightening thought: Exclude an entire genre, even at the cost of a worthy film. The Top 100 Non-Animated Films.

Seriously, SDG? You would attach The Incredibles to this list in front of Citizen Kane?

I'd be happy to include Citizen Kane, but I'm not offended at the thought of The Incredibles edging it out. To my way of thinking, pace Ryan, they're both flat-out, all-time, essentially flawless masterpieces for the ages, and I'd put Spirited Away, My Neighbor Totoro and maybe Grave of the Fireflies in that camp too.

“I write because I don’t know what I think until I read what I say.” — Flannery O'Connor

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I think the question should become: Are all of those films weaker than the five animations on the list? How about this: are all of those films lesser than Make Way For Tomorrow?

We have to accept that no Top 100 we ever make can be anywhere near perfectly consistent or definitive. Not when you have so many different voices contributing, voices relying on very different tastes and beliefs. This list is not the process of a coherent, systematic thought. As such, I've never put much stock in the ranking of our list, or whether this Bergman got in over that that Bergman. Sure, I have opinions on that score, but I don't hold them as deep reservations about the list entire. The ranking is always going to be somewhat wonky. The key matter is whether or not these films are in the strata of genuine excellence, and through that excellence, belong in conversation with one another, a conversation created by the development of our own Top 100 "canon."

I'm quite happy to see films like SPIRITED AWAY and MAKE WAY FOR TOMORROW enter in that conversation. They are, in their own way, excellent, all-time great films, or are least worthy of being discussed as such, as are films like TOUCH OF EVIL, THE TRIAL, and VERTIGO. Whether, taken on an individual basis, they are more remarkable than the other, it would be hard to say, because they're so different.

Was Citizen Kane even nominated?

Nope.

Seems to me that the nomination process needs tweaked, at least opening it up a good 6 months in advance so that we have more time to build in candidates would be helpful.

Well, we did have a thread before nominations where people could brainstorm about what they wanted to see make the list (I was working through my nominations there, too), but most folks didn't participate.

Are comedies inherently not great?

Let's not forget that, as a rule, Stef dislikes comedies.

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Seems to me that the nomination process needs tweaked, at least opening it up a good 6 months in advance so that we have more time to build in candidates would be helpful.

A great idea.

But I am not in favor of exluding animation from the list; just disappointed that I forgot to nominate "Transformers: The Movie".

A terrible idea.

But it did make me laugh.

Every list, especially one as sweeping as this, misses boats. You always miss more boats than you catch. That's the nature of a list. I'm chagrined to realize we've never included The Tree of Wooden Clogs. That's a ginormous oversight in my book, and I'm as guilty as anyone. That doesn't change the fact that we've got a list we can be proud of.

Fair enough. Good point, but I'll get back to you on whether I can be proud of this list.

That is a part of it. It also has to do with Brakhage, and the replacing of serious films with family fare.

I think last year's list was too serious, frankly. I'm serious. It's disproportionate to the human condition. Is "serious" better than "not serious"? Are comedies inherently not great?

Comedies are mostly not great. I did attempt one this week though. The 40 Year Old Virgin. Have you seen it? Wonderful film. I laughed my way all the way to the gates of hell.

I campaigned for The Miracle Maker but would gladly leave it off the list to leave off animation in general.
That's a frightening thought: Exclude an entire genre, even at the cost of a worthy film. The Top 100 Non-Animated Films.

Is animation by its definition even film?

I was willing to make the exception for The Miracle Maker due to its themes particular to this community, and the fact that it can be seen by any age, race, gender. The community is obviously in transition so that's the last time I consider a film by those merits.

Seriously, SDG? You would attach The Incredibles to this list in front of Citizen Kane?

I'd be happy to include Citizen Kane, but I'm not offended at the thought of The Incredibles edging it out. To my way of thinking, pace Ryan, they're both flat-out, all-time, essentially flawless masterpieces for the ages, and I'd put Spirited Away, My Neighbor Totoro and maybe Grave of the Fireflies in that camp too.

I guess that's just a difference in opinion. I still like you even though you're whack.

Edited by Persona

In an interstellar burst, I am back to save the Universe.

Filmsweep by Persona. 2013 Film Journal. IlPersona.

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Is animation by its definition even film?

By what narrow definition of "film" would it fail to qualify?

The fact that old school didn't even use a camera to capture it and new school draws it on computers? The fact that film is only used for a few months to distribute it when they're done, that the only reason it's even still put in that format is because it's the standard most theaters use to project an image? Wow, that's narrow?

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Filmsweep by Persona. 2013 Film Journal. IlPersona.

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I campaigned for The Miracle Maker but would gladly leave it off the list to leave off animation in general.
That's a frightening thought: Exclude an entire genre, even at the cost of a worthy film. The Top 100 Non-Animated Films.

Is animation by its definition even film?

I was willing to make the exception for The Miracle Maker due to its themes particular to this community, and the fact that it can be seen by any age, race, gender. The community is obviously in transition so that's the last time I consider a film by those merits.

Yes, the community is definitely in transition and can be evidenced in the 2011 Top 100.

I don't know if I am interested in the discussion of "is animation film" but I would be interested in the discussion of removing it from the Top 100 voting process. I think short films qualify more than animation does -- both for the Top 100 and the question of "are they film."

...the kind of film criticism we do. We are talking about life, and more than that the possibility of abundant life." -M.Leary

"Dad, how does she move in mysterious ways?"" -- Jude (my 5-year-old, after listening to Mysterious Ways)

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I don't know if I am interested in the discussion of "is animation film" but I would be interested in the discussion of removing it from the Top 100 voting process.

I'm with SDG. Horrible idea. I'm all for allowing short films back into the conversation (I think we made a mistake in excluding them), but I see no legitimate reason to exclude animated film.

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The fact that old school didn't even use a camera to capture it

Ahem.

Right. Poor wording. You get the point.

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Comedies are mostly not great.

Every genre is mostly not great.

Is animation by its definition even film?

Stef, I think your train of thought has derailed.

I was willing to make the exception for The Miracle Maker due to its themes particular to this community, and the fact that it can be seen by any age, race, gender. The community is obviously in transition so that's the last time I consider a film by those merits.

Um. I'm not saying there aren't films that can't be seen by any gender, but, um, if there are, they don't belong on our list.

For the rest -- holy smokes, Stef, vote for what you think the list ought to be. According to you. The idea that one's own vote should be affected by a changing community strikes me as downright frightening. If anything, those of us who have been around longer represent a legacy that should continue to have a voice. If there's no continuity with the past, change the name.

The fact that old school didn't even use a camera to capture it

Ahem.

Right. Poor wording. You get the point.

I don't, actually. Do you mean that film didn't run through the camera in real time? Every frame is a cut, then. That doesn't mean it's not cinema.

“I write because I don’t know what I think until I read what I say.” — Flannery O'Connor

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Comedies are mostly not great.

Every genre is mostly not great.

Good grief. You asked me a stacked question to begin with, "Are comedies inherently not great?" So, taking the word "inherently" into account I came up with two or three comedies that I couldn't say weren't great. So I say mostly, and now I find out that mostly all genres aren't great. If you didn't want me to answer or knew what the answer would be, or if the question was intended as circular, why ask the question in the first place?

Is animation by its definition even film?

Stef, I think your train of thought has derailed.

Has the question been asked or considered in a list that purports to be "Top 100 FILMS"?

I was willing to make the exception for The Miracle Maker due to its themes particular to this community, and the fact that it can be seen by any age, race, gender. The community is obviously in transition so that's the last time I consider a film by those merits.

Um. I'm not saying there aren't films that can't be seen by any gender, but, um, if there are, they don't belong on our list.

Ha!

For the rest -- holy smokes, Stef, vote for what you think the list ought to be. According to you. The idea that one's own vote should be affected by a changing community strikes me as downright frightening. If anything, those of us who have been around longer represent a legacy that should continue to have a voice. If there's no continuity with the past, change the name.

The name of the forum or the name of the list? I had nothing to do with the former, a bit to do with the latter.

The fact that old school didn't even use a camera to capture it

Ahem.

Right. Poor wording. You get the point.

I don't, actually. Do you mean that film didn't run through the camera in real time? Every frame is a cut, then. That doesn't mean it's not cinema.

Let's skip the technical for now. Maybe somewhere else you can teach me why animation = film, cuz I've been pretty consistent over the years with not buying into that mode of thought. (But your case does suggest that stop-motion is closer than CGI, which I can buy.)

They are lesser, and there is better.

I've not said these aren't good films, what I've said is that the list is poorer (dumber) because of their presence on it. I've also said that this is a generalization, but that I will find more specific examples of what they've replaced as I plod along checking out our new Top 100, a list that over time has looked more deficient to me.

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Filmsweep by Persona. 2013 Film Journal. IlPersona.

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I don't actually think that we should separate animation out of the Top 100, but I am very sympathetic to at least one line of reasoning for such a change, namely that animation is a different way of making movies than live-action, and as such is a different art form.

At the most fundamental, frame-to-frame-to-frame level, the craft of making an animated movie is totally different than making a live-action one. The strengths and weaknesses of these different art forms are also very different.

The biggest reason I wouldn't want to separate out the Top 100, or any other list, is because they are different but not distinct. Animation and live-action can, and do, co-exist in the same movie without a problem, and even when they are separate, our cultural ways of going to see them (theaters, TV, etc.) are identical. I guess they are different art forms, but similar cultural texts, and because A&F is built on a core of critics, not artists, it doesn't make sense to distinguish on the former rather than the latter.

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