Jump to content

The Dark Knight (2008)


Recommended Posts

I bet the Scarecrow will be back also.

He'd better. Maybe he'll get around to donning the full costume.

Rumors on AICN and other fan sites indicate that Harvey Dent/Two-Face will put in an appearance.

Kewl. Never saw Batman Forever (which, it seems, is fortunate), but I can bet Nolan would give Two-Face a better treatment.

That brings me to wonder, how will Nolan handle the Joker? Ra's, Falcone, and even Scarecrow were fairly "serious" villains, while Joker is much more, well, not serious. Tim Burton's Batman, um, bombed (in terms of quality; I know it was a box-office hit), yet he was the ideal director for the Joker, because he's so psychotic (the Joker) (also Burton). It just makes me wonder what Nolan's gonna do with him.

Maybe they could bring Burton back to direct the Joker, and Nolan could do everything else. :)

My name is Darth Vader. I come from the planet Vulcan.

- Back to the Future

To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some other things I can't remember; all rolled into one big "thing." This is truth, to me.

- Jack Handey

The Moviegeist

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 487
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Plankton wrote:

: Never saw Batman Forever (which, it seems, is fortunate) . . .

FWIW, I know a few people (including myself) who are inclined to think that that was the only decent film in the entire pre-Nolan series. Still wasn't as good as Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, though -- that was easily the best Batman movie pre-Nolan.

As for the Joker and how Nolan would handle him ... yeah, that's an interesting question. One of the things I loved about Batman Begins was the recurring, overarching theme of FEAR. But the Burton films, especially the first one, focused more on INSANITY. And that's fine, to a point, because a number of Batman comics have done that too (not least The Killing Joke). But if FEAR is your big theme, then I'm not sure exactly how the Joker would be woven into the story. It probably CAN be done, but it'll be tricky.

"Sympathy must precede belligerence. First I must understand the other, as it were, from the inside; then I can critique it from the outside. So many people skip right to the latter." -- Steven D. Greydanus
Now blogging at Patheos.com. I can also still be found at Facebook, Twitter and Flickr. See also my film journal.

Link to post
Share on other sites
FWIW, I know a few people (including myself) who are inclined to think that that was the only decent film in the entire pre-Nolan series.

Really? I had heard that the first Burton one (aka, Batman) was the "best". I wasn't impressed when I saw it, so I skipped the others. But maybe I should reconsider.

One of the things I loved about Batman Begins was the recurring, overarching theme of FEAR. But the Burton films, especially the first one, focused more on INSANITY.

You hit the nail on the head. Fear is what Batman's all about; but Burton obviously couldn't resist focusing on the insanity of the Joker, and so he (Joker) stole every scene (making you wonder why it wasn't called Joker instead).

Still, I have faith in Nolan. Scarecrow was starting to crack at the end of Batman Begins, and that was handled well.

My name is Darth Vader. I come from the planet Vulcan.

- Back to the Future

To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some other things I can't remember; all rolled into one big "thing." This is truth, to me.

- Jack Handey

The Moviegeist

Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the Joker and how Nolan would handle him ... yeah, that's an interesting question. One of the things I loved about Batman Begins was the recurring, overarching theme of FEAR. But the Burton films, especially the first one, focused more on INSANITY. And that's fine, to a point, because a number of Batman comics have done that too (not least The Killing Joke). But if FEAR is your big theme, then I'm not sure exactly how the Joker would be woven into the story. It probably CAN be done, but it'll be tricky.

Well, I for one find The Joker terrifying (see Alan's avatar). I've always found clowns horribly creepy.

I think the Joker is far from a less-serious vilian; even if HE takes himself less seriously, that almost makes him more dangerous.

"A director must live with the fact that his work will be called to judgment by someone who has never seen a film of Murnau's." - François Truffaut

Twitter.
Letterboxd.

Reviews and essays at Three Brothers Film.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, I for one find The Joker terrifying (see Alan's avatar). I've always found clowns horribly creepy.

Oh, so THAT'S what it is. I wondered. But yeah, Joker's pretty creepy. But he's not ABOUT fear. He's about INSANITY, and that's the main theme that needs to be emphasized. If Nolan milked the fear aspect, Joker would just be another Scarecrow in a purple suit.

My name is Darth Vader. I come from the planet Vulcan.

- Back to the Future

To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some other things I can't remember; all rolled into one big "thing." This is truth, to me.

- Jack Handey

The Moviegeist

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure that Nolan has learned from the mistakes of the previous Batman movies (although I still officially do not recognize their existence). Those that I did watch, and those that made some attempt to be taken seriously, all seemed to CONTINUALLY harp on the same theme over and over again, and that was one of dual identity - in the character of Batman himself, in Jack Napier/The Joker, etc. By they time they got to Two-Face they had exhausted the theme when they most needed it. Granted, a hidden identity is key in this genre, but the filmmakers just kept focusing on it and that made it stale (among other problems with those films).

Nolan went in a new direction, and straight to the essence of the Batman mystique: Fear and vengeance v. justice. Yes, dual identity was in Batman Begins, but it was not hammered upon like before. Nolan's Batman did not wrestle with becoming/being Batman, only of who Batman would be (vigilante or purveyor of justice). He had a clarity of vision that Burton's Batman lacked.

Based on what Nolan has done so far I am pretty sure that he'll do a great job with The Joker.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Plankton wrote:

: Really? I had heard that the first Burton one (aka, Batman) was the "best".

Yeah, that's the conventional wisdom, but Lord only knows why. I disliked that movie from the moment I saw it (even after I heard that a map of Vancouver was used for the map of Gotham City). Burton's films are every bit as stupid and campy and disconnected from the comics as the 1960s TV show, just in a "darker" sort of way (and occasionally in a more vulgar or innuendo-ish sort of way, e.g. the Penguin greeting Catwoman with the words, "Just the pussy I've been looking for" -- I remember someone complaining that a line like that was totally out of place in a movie that was being promoted at the time by McDonald's).

(Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with innuendo, mind. And not that I think these films should be judged on how appropriate they are for a Happy Meal. Lord knows the Batman COMICS can be pretty out-there sometimes. I'm just saying that that sort of thing was pretty much the only salient difference between the 1960s camp and the 1990s camp.)

"Sympathy must precede belligerence. First I must understand the other, as it were, from the inside; then I can critique it from the outside. So many people skip right to the latter." -- Steven D. Greydanus
Now blogging at Patheos.com. I can also still be found at Facebook, Twitter and Flickr. See also my film journal.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Plankton wrote:

: Really? I had heard that the first Burton one (aka, Batman) was the "best".

Yeah, that's the conventional wisdom, but Lord only knows why. I disliked that movie from the moment I saw it (even after I heard that a map of Vancouver was used for the map of Gotham City). Burton's films are every bit as stupid and campy and disconnected from the comics as the 1960s TV show, just in a "darker" sort of way (and occasionally in a more vulgar or innuendo-ish sort of way, e.g. the Penguin greeting Catwoman with the words, "Just the pussy I've been looking for" -- I remember someone complaining that a line like that was totally out of place in a movie that was being promoted at the time by McDonald's).

(Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with innuendo, mind. And not that I think these films should be judged on how appropriate they are for a Happy Meal. Lord knows the Batman COMICS can be pretty out-there sometimes. I'm just saying that that sort of thing was pretty much the only salient difference between the 1960s camp and the 1990s camp.)

Mike Nelson (of Mystery Science Theater 3000 fame) called the early Batman films "...actively promoting the death of joy."

Edited by Clint M
Link to post
Share on other sites
I disliked that movie from the moment I saw it (even after I heard that a map of Vancouver was used for the map of Gotham City).

Yeah, me too. But really? They used a Vancouver map? That's cool. I lived in Vancouver when I was much younger. The movie still sucked, though. The only parts I can remember enjoying (other than most of the Joker's scenes) was when Batman said "I'm Batman", and that last shot with him silhouetted against the Bat Sign (or whatever it's called). You can imagine my utter glee when both were in Batman Begins (and done much better, too.)

My name is Darth Vader. I come from the planet Vulcan.

- Back to the Future

To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some other things I can't remember; all rolled into one big "thing." This is truth, to me.

- Jack Handey

The Moviegeist

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just wondering, am I the only person who finds this title a little ... generic?

Granted, it doesn't have the word "Batman" in the title, which serves to distinguish this movie from the campy Martinson/Burton/Schumacher films of the '60s, '80s and '90s -- but this also distinguishes this movie from its immediate predecessor, Batman Begins. Hmmm.

And since the graphic novels have long had titles like The Killing Joke or Batman: The Cult or The Dark Knight RETURNS, etc., etc., I dunno, I find myself wanting a movie title with a little more oomph.

"Sympathy must precede belligerence. First I must understand the other, as it were, from the inside; then I can critique it from the outside. So many people skip right to the latter." -- Steven D. Greydanus
Now blogging at Patheos.com. I can also still be found at Facebook, Twitter and Flickr. See also my film journal.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that Ledger's casting is official, so is my disappointment and skepticism with the choice.

I guess Brokeback Mountain establishes Ledger's actorly bona fides in the eyes of some, but in my eyes he's a lightweight. I have no confidence in his ability to project the requisite blend of deranged intelligence, wit and menace.

Also, his body type and face shape is not right. Ledger is a classically square-jawed hero, perhaps more so than Bale himself. The Joker should not be more manly than Batman. He needs to be more slight and wiry.

Ledger's A Knight's Tale costar Paul Bettany would have been a great choice.

“I write because I don’t know what I think until I read what I say.” — Flannery O'Connor

Writing at the new Decent Films | Follow me on Twitter and Facebook

Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that Ledger's casting is official, so is my disappointment and skepticism with the choice.

I haven't seen Nolan make a misstep yet in casting, not in Memento, Insomnia or Batman Begins. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

And FWIW, I like The Dark Knight as a title. Connects it to the darker strains of the graphic novels, as well as captures the ethos of Bale's Batman now established in his work.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Didn't we all wonder about Michael Caine as Alfred, and yet he delivered one of the film's most moving performances?
Really? You were cautious about Michael Caine? I wasn't -- I thought he'd do a great job. The depth of his performance didn't surprise me -- although his undisguised Cockney accent does -- I assumed he'd be doing an Oxonian-type accent -- and it still bugs me on some level. I'd like to ask him and/or Nolan about that.

Sure, Nolan has earned some credit. Ledger could surprise me, and I hope he does. I'd love to eat my words. All I'm saying is, a good Ledger performance here would be a surprise, whereas I would be confident of one from Bettany.

“I write because I don’t know what I think until I read what I say.” — Flannery O'Connor

Writing at the new Decent Films | Follow me on Twitter and Facebook

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was always partial to John Glover myself...though I am starting to think he is most ideal for the Joker if they adapted the Dark Knight Returns.

"You know...not EVERY story has to be interesting." -Gibby

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not familiar with Black Mask, so I can't comment much on that rumor. It seems way to complicated a plotline for a movie that's also going to develop The Joker.

If they go with recent comic book storylines, Black Mask was the big crime boss in Gotham City until Catwoman killed him in Catwoman #52.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Blast. I was hoping they'd call it Batman Continues. :)

As to the "Ledger debate", I guess I can't really comment on him as an actor, having not seen any of his films (as far as I know). But, even if he doesn't LOOK right, remember, that's what make-up's for.

The use of recognizable melody is very sparse in the first film, but there's a constant "heartbeat" rhythm going on throughout many sequences if not most of the film. That was very effective at building tension.

So right. They better bring back Zimmer. After I saw it I found myself trying to hum the music, and I couldn't do, since there wasn't really any melody. I think that made it even better.

My name is Darth Vader. I come from the planet Vulcan.

- Back to the Future

To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some other things I can't remember; all rolled into one big "thing." This is truth, to me.

- Jack Handey

The Moviegeist

Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like we have a title:

The Dark Knight (link goes to comingsoon.net)

:batman:

Oh yes. The day I've been waiting for has arrived. How utterly cool.

And FWIW, I like The Dark Knight as a title. Connects it to the darker strains of the graphic novels, as well as captures the ethos of Bale's Batman now established in his work.

ABSO-FRICKIN-LUTELY.

[*]The music. I actually hesitate to call it music. The use of recognizable melody is very sparse in the first film, but there's a constant "heartbeat" rhythm going on throughout many sequences if not most of the film. That was very effective at building tension.

Great point that I never thought of. There is a definite pulsating rhythm to Batman Begins that builds tension without falling prey to being an overly decipherable, typically predictable, and always TOO KNOWN BY THE END movie soundtrack.

When I watch the BB DVD I have to turn the subtitles on.

Every film is always better with the subtitles on. :)

-s.

Edited by stef

In an interstellar burst, I am back to save the Universe.

Filmsweep by Persona. 2013 Film Journal. IlPersona.

Link to post
Share on other sites

SDG wrote:

: Really? You were cautious about Michael Caine?

Yeah, concerns about Caine's casting were first expressed here, when his involvement in the film was announced almost three years ago.

: The depth of his performance didn't surprise me -- although his undisguised Cockney accent does

: -- I assumed he'd be doing an Oxonian-type accent -- and it still bugs me on some level. I'd like

: to ask him and/or Nolan about that.

That was also addressed on the other film's thread, here:

AP: Batman's butler and an ancient warlock. How do you prepare for two such different roles?

Caine: I do a backstory, and the backstory on the butler is, he was a sergeant in the British Special Services. Very tough, got wounded, got put in charge of the sergeant's mess or canteen. Therefore, he knew how to do drinks and serve and do that. He was seen by the father of Bruce Wayne, who said come and be my butler. Sort of butler-bodyguard. So I played him as that, and the voice was the voice of my sergeant when I first joined the British Army. And he looks like he's more active than a butler's ever been. I wanted him to look like a man of action who's a bit too old to do it professionally, but if push came to shove, he could take care of himself.

Plankton wrote:

: They better bring back Zimmer.

And Howard. Don't you dare forget James Newton Howard. Zimmer has a nice pulsing thing going on -- he used the exact same technique for The Da Vinci Code, BTW -- but it is Howard who provides some of the most lyrical moments, in the flashback scenes or in Bruce's scenes with, um, the Katie Holmes character, whatever her name is.

(Side note: I recently saw an article somewhere where Howard discussed his scores, focusing on the half-dozen or so that are his favorites, and he said he was still proud of Snow Falling on Cedars. Yes!! I used to listen to that one quite a bit -- it evokes the mood of that film wonderfully -- and I find that his music for Batman Begins was rather reminiscent of that.)

"Sympathy must precede belligerence. First I must understand the other, as it were, from the inside; then I can critique it from the outside. So many people skip right to the latter." -- Steven D. Greydanus
Now blogging at Patheos.com. I can also still be found at Facebook, Twitter and Flickr. See also my film journal.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a thought on the title: I wonder if ultimately the word "Batman" will end up in it. I remember back when the second X-Men film was tentatively titled X2; Fox got nervous that people wouldn't recognize the franchise so they added that clunky "X-Men United" tagline. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happened here.

-"I... drink... your... milkshake! I drink it up!"

Daniel Plainview, There Will Be Blood

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a thought on the title: I wonder if ultimately the word "Batman" will end up in it. I remember back when the second X-Men film was tentatively titled X2; Fox got nervous that people wouldn't recognize the franchise so they added that clunky "X-Men United" tagline. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happened here.

[pedantic]

The X-men United subtitle was, it seems to me, a promotional title: the on-screen title remained simply X2.

[/pedantic]

:P

Edward Curtis

Morgantown, WV

Hold the physician in honor, for he is essential to you, and God it was who created his profession. Sirach 38:1 NAB

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, quite likely they'll call it Batman: The Dark Knight, or some such crap. :angry:

Sequel names are always annoying, unless they're, uh, done right. I mean, when Revenge of the Sith came out, I didn't tell my friends I'd seen Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith last night. I said, "I saw Star Wars 3 last night." I really don't see why they have to make sequel names so complicated. Why can't they just attach a number, like Toy Story? But no ... it has to be something fancy, particularily when the film in question is based off a book. They have to attach the title of the series on there too.

Gee, MrZoom. You think YOU'RE pedantic. :D

My name is Darth Vader. I come from the planet Vulcan.

- Back to the Future

To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some other things I can't remember; all rolled into one big "thing." This is truth, to me.

- Jack Handey

The Moviegeist

Link to post
Share on other sites

As the Joker? :huh: He somehow doesn't seem like the kind of actor who would play a maniacal, homicidal clown.

My name is Darth Vader. I come from the planet Vulcan.

- Back to the Future

To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some other things I can't remember; all rolled into one big "thing." This is truth, to me.

- Jack Handey

The Moviegeist

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...