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Hip-hop (Is rap crap?)

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Recently, several friends of mine have told me that I'm too hard on rap music. I've always found the genre to be repetitive, mindless, vulgar, and lacking in any kind of musicianship. Rap songs all tend to sound the same, and mainstream stuff is all filthy while CCM rap is too preachy. In fact, the only rap artist that I like at all is Lauryn Hill.

Is that pretty much the experience that you've had with the genre? If not, then can you suggest some albums that might change my mind?

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Josh -- you need new friends.

I remember Tom Sine having positive things to say about rap -- "the poetry of the streets" or some such -- but of course he was talking about old-school stuff, before the gangsta thing went down.

I find it illuminating to read the opinions of older African-American musicians I respect -- B.B. King, Clarence Gatemouth Brown, Ray Charles. They've nary a good word for hip-hop among the three of them. B.B., for example, expressed dismay at the misogyny he saw in the genre.

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Well, I kind of grew up with rap music, Raising Hell by RUN DMC was the first album (or tape, I should say) that I ever owned. Have you only heard recent rap music or some older stuff as well? Repetitive how exacty? The Ramones tended to be repetitive. Most pop music tends to be repetitive. Rap music tends to be party music. It's meant to move your feet. In that sense it doesn't pay to be to complex. Mindless? Depends on who you listen to. Lyrically, if you don't know the culture, some of it's not going to make any sense. But I'd argue that Chuck D, early Ice Cube and Biggie Smalls even Jay-Z have some witty and complex stuff. Vulgar? No argument from me. 99% of rap albums have at least some cursing. Musicianship? Hmm, I don't know how to answer this one. I think some of the songs that the Neptunes have come up with in the last few years are brilliant minimalist compositions. But thats just me. Sampling can be an art form. Early Public Enemy (actually anything the Bomb Squad ever did), early De La Soul and the Beastie Boys Paul's Boutique albums are sound collages taking disparte music and mixing it together to form a whole new sound and song. Rap songs all sound the same? Ehh, maybe. I don't hear it like that but when I play rock songs for some of my friends they say they all sound the same.

Albums I'd suggest to try out:

Beastie Boys - Paul's Boutique

De La Soul - Three Feet High and Rising

Public Enemy - It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back

A Tribe Called Quest - Low End Theory

I tried to pick stuff that didn't have to much cursing but there is a smattering of it through out those albums. I also picked older albums as it is impossible to find new stuff that's any good and has no cursing

Here's a website that lists all the samples on Paul's Boutique, just click on a song.

http://www.moire.com/beastieboys/samples/songs.php

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Kill me, but I've become an M&M fan. Funny, a hurricane of words (I read a review of the 8 Mile film in which the reviewer counted 11,000 words in a three minute rap that communicated volumes about the fear and pain of performance), and sometimes profound. I am no expert on rap and much of it leaves me cold. I can't write the whole thing off though.

I will say that the great preponderance of all genres of music is often bad on its face, or at least by the standards of the particular genre.

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Kill me, but I've become an M&M fan.

Response #1: Gladly. Rope, knife, or gun?

Response #2: Me too, but only the brown ones.

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It can take some searching to find quality hip-hop, but believe me, it's out there. To start out, check out Jurassic 5. Great, old-school, type rap with eloquent lyrics. "Thin-Line" is a great track about the tension that can exist in male/female friendships where there's an emotional drive to push the boundries of the relationship, but a rational knowledge that that would be disastrous. The whole album Power in Numbers is really very good.

The bits I've heard from the new Outkast album were also phenomenal.

For something a bit more experimental, check out Soul-Junk.

Half of me hates Emenem, the other half loves him. He has a talent for songwriting that I think is unparrelled in the pop-music biz. Only Bono and U2 write at the same level. He puts together some of the intricate poetry you could ever hope to experience. However, he's almost purely negative in his subject matter. One song of his that epitomizes his style and theme is Superman. It portrays to a T the mysogenistic gangsta attitude, but Em's delivery throughout the song seems to indicate a very high level of disgust for this attitude. Perhaps all of his stuff is an intentional caricature of a rotten biz, similar to U2's Zooropa, or even Spinal Tap, but the biz itself is so extreme that it its tough to go much further, making caricatures tough to distinguish.

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The bits I've heard from the new Outkast album were also phenomenal.

Interesting; frankly, the radio singles I've heard from Outkast have left me unimpressed, and their performance on SNL a couple of weeks ago was a yawner.

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The bits I've heard from the new Outkast album were also phenomenal.

Interesting; frankly, the radio singles I've heard from Outkast have left me unimpressed, and their performance on SNL a couple of weeks ago was a yawner.

Did you hear the jazz/drum&base miz of "These are a Few of My Favorite Things"?

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It can take some searching to find quality hip-hop, but believe me, it's out there. To start out, check out Jurassic 5. Great, old-school, type rap with eloquent lyrics. "Thin-Line" is a great track about the tension that can exist in male/female friendships where there's an emotional drive to push the boundries of the relationship, but a rational knowledge that that would be disastrous. The whole album Power in Numbers is really very good.

Great to see another Jurassic 5 fan out there. They really are great. One of the few hip-hop albums in the last few years that I really dug (and I used to listen to quite a bit back in high school).

Half of me hates Emenem, the other half loves him. He has a talent for songwriting that I think is unparrelled in the pop-music biz.

As for Eminem; well, I agree with your assessment. I have to admit that he's one of my guilty pleasures. And his talent is miles ahead of any other mainstream artist in hip-hop today. I remember starting a heated discussion at the supper table by suggesting to my mother, who was talking about how in her daily devotional they talked about how King David dealt with some very violent imagery in the Psalms, that Eminem was like King David for the pop music genre (in that he writes about some very dark, negative themes but with tremendous artistry).

Seriously, as someone who's a fan of hip-hop as a genre, I can't stand Nelly and his crowd that keep making hip-hop more and more pop. It seems sometimes that the quest for mainstream acceptance kills genres faster than anything.

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I've recently been getting into a lot of underground/experimental hip-hop, and it's become increasingly clear to me that it's just as creative and ingenious as any genre of music (and just as banal as any genre). I'd recommend any of the following...

DJ Shadow - "Endtroducing"

(Okay, so it's just a guy and his turntables... no MCs... but the sounds this guy comes up with is incredible. Sadly, "The Private Press" is utter dreck.)

RJD2 - "Deadringer"

(Another great instrumental hip-hop/turntablist album.)

Soul-Junk

(Picture the Danielson Famile with two turntables and a microphone. My personal fave is "1956", which just blew me away when I first heard it. Their past 2 albums, "1957" and "1958", were a bit too abstract for my tastes, but still, you won't find a more creative and frankly bizarre act in Christendom.)

Clouddead - "Clouddead"

(I just picked this up a few weeks ago, and it's incredible. I never thought to use terms like "ambient" or "psychedelic" when describing hip-hop, but that's all I can think of when confronted by this album's sonic textures and the vocals of DoseOne and Why?. If Soul-Junk floats your boat, you need this album.)

V/A - "Lexoleum"

(Lex is the hip-hop imprint of Warp Records, and this is a fairly decent comp spotlighting their artists. There are some weak tracks, as well as a pretty vulgar one from Peaches that might raise some eyebrows... but it's worth the price just for the track by Subtle, which might be the best downtempo track I heard all year.)

Other artists worth noting...

Blackalicious (I caught them live a few years ago, and it was incredible. Their MC, Gift Of Gab, is just amazing.)

Aesop Rock (Founder of the Definitive Jux label, one of the biggest names in indie/underground hip-hop)

The Anticon Collective (More psychedelic, progressive hip-hop. I've only heard one track, but I'm sold.)

I might also check out The Avalanches. Again, not strictly hip-hop, but some of the most amazing turntablist/sound collage/instrumental stuff I've ever heard. And what's incredible about it is just how clever, humorous, and catchy so much of it is.

And of course... The Lords Of The Rhymes

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Posted · Report post

I want to check out some hip-hop, but the genre just generally doesn't inspire me. I have some reccomendations that I may act on, after I buy a bunch of other stuff....

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Hmmm. More evidence of the slide in quality at NYT. I'm surprised that The Source is noticing anything that doesn't have immediate relevance to sleazily, barely dressed hiphop babes. That seems to be 70% of the mag's content. I'm surprised that it is taken seriously.

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I usually like First Things' articles quite a bit, and even when I don't entirely agree with them, I find them thoughtful and well-written. Not so with "Be Wary What You Listen To", which starts with Lil' Wayne's recent release from prison and then goes on to make all sorts of startling generalizations about rap's egregious nature.

Rap pounds this self-promoting, authority denouncing message from every angle. Most obviously, it does so with its subject matter. Sex and drugs pervade the lyrics while violence and anti-cop images fill rap music videos, all urging listeners to revolt against standards of morality and rebel against “tyrannical” authority. Even the most secular moral standard based on “consenting adults” stands in the way of rap’s push for self assertion as rape, degradation of women, and violence to get what I want pervade the lyrics.

Rappers add to this revolt by casting off the laws of language itself. Rap lyrics very literally bastardize the English language by ignoring grammar, pronunciation, or clarity in communication. Thus, rap music promotes a “sing what I want, talk how I want, do what I want” attitude in rejection of standards for right or wrong.

In addition to the lyrics, it is worth remembering that music itself is a means of communication. Music is not a neutral medium that becomes good or bad based on the words that accompany it; music is an art form that creates impressions, communicates to an audience, and presents its listeners with an interpretation of reality.

One doesn’t need to go read dissertations on the reactions of mice in mazes in order to recognize music’s power. Think about the natural reactions of the body to a Braham’s lullaby, a Sousa march, a U2 rock song, or a Lil’ Wayne rap. Although we might be able to curb our natural reactions, the body longs to sit and relax, to march in line, to jump and clap, or to grind and mosh based on the music it hears. Lyrics often become the only litmus test of acceptable music, but music itself impacts both the mind and the body by stirring up emotions in its listeners. Rap music undermines authority as its jolting beat assaults the standards of musical form.

This is the sort of cultural analysis by Christians that really annoys me. It starts off right, has its heart in the right place, and whatnot. But it descends into sweeping generalizations and cultural elitism. It reminds me of Bob Larson's screeds against rock and heavy metal in the late '80s.

Edited by opus

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Yeah, I wish more people would have the courage to say "I just don't like this stuff" without trying to construct dubious theological, musicological, psychological or physiological arguments to enthrone their own tastes above those of someone else.

The evidence against this writer's thesis is right there in his essay. It's literally staring him in the face: a whole classroom full of Christian high school students who are listening to hip-hop but somehow haven't been transformed into knuckle-dragging, glue-sniffing, blunt-puffing, ho-raping hoodlums. Hm. Maybe music doesn't automatically override all the other influences in a teenager's life. Maybe the type of music a kid listens to doesn't inexorably lead to certain lifestyle choices, any more than liking Tosca or Sweeney Todd makes you more likely to commit suicide or become a serial killer.

It's certainly worthwhile to teach kids to evaluate the messages they're getting from popular music, but beyond that, there is no one-size-fits-all solution, as the First Things folks certainly ought to know.

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The evidence against this writer's thesis is right there in his essay. It's literally staring him in the face: a whole classroom full of Christian high school students who are listening to hip-hop but somehow haven't been transformed into knuckle-dragging, glue-sniffing, blunt-puffing, ho-raping hoodlums. Hm. Maybe music doesn't automatically override all the other influences in a teenager's life. Maybe the type of music a kid listens to doesn't inexorably lead to certain lifestyle choices, any more than liking Tosca or Sweeney Todd makes you more likely to commit suicide or become a serial killer.

Does the evidence then support the conclusion that there is literally no morally bad art, only morally bad consumers of art?

Because the classroom of Christian teenagers haven't been transformed into knuckle-dragging, glue-sniffing, blunt-puffing, ho-raping hoodlums, does it follow that they aren't being harmed either by the music itself or by their own choice to listen to it?

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Good grief! Das racist!

Edited by Holy Moly!

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For what it's worth, I think that what bothers me the most about the article is the writer's impression that rap is an inferior musical form simply because it doesn't subscribe to the same "standards" that his "classically-trained ears". This is what I was referring to when I mentioned "cultural elitism" earlier, this idea that "Mozart, monks, and medieval polyphony" somehow represent the pinnacle of musical development and everything else is downhill from there. (I'm reminded of an art history professor who stated, on the first day of classes, that he believed that great art ended with the Roman Empire.)

As the writer puts it, "Rap music undermines authority as its jolting beat assaults the standards of musical form." But to me, that just begs the question of what standards he's talking about. (If he thinks rap assaults those standards, I wonder what he'd think of mash-up artists like Girl Talk and The Kleptones, who gleefully treat genres with great irreverence. Or even better yet, noise artists like Wolf Eyes, Yellow Swans, Black Dice, etc.)

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Does the evidence then support the conclusion that there is literally no morally bad art, only morally bad consumers of art?

I'm not going that far. I'm suggesting that the moral relationship between art and its consumers is more complicated than Walker may have supposed.

Dorothy Parker visited Hearst Castle and, upon noticing a beautiful statue of the Virgin Mary outside Marion Davies' room, reputedly penned these words:

Upon my honor,

I saw a Madonna

Standing in a niche

Above the door

Of the private whore

Of the world's worst son of a bitch.

So moral art doesn't automatically make its consumers moral, and immoral art doesn't automatically confer immorality upon its consumers. The effect of art upon its consumers depends in great measure on many additional factors.

Because the classroom of Christian teenagers haven't been transformed into knuckle-dragging, glue-sniffing, blunt-puffing, ho-raping hoodlums, does it follow that they aren't being harmed either by the music itself or by their own choice to listen to it?

Of course not. It sounds like this particular group of kids may have gotten enough moral instruction and commonsense education to realize that music lyrics shouldn't govern their lifestyle choices. It's always appropriate to urge kids to think about the messages they're getting in art, and to encourage them to think on whatever is true, noble, pure, right, excellent, praiseworthy, etc. Walker admits all that, but he seems tempted to venture into the territory of "Turn off that crap, I don't like the beat" ... which AFAIK is not an effective way to engage kids in thinking about the moral dimensions of art.

FWIW, most hip-hop and rap that I've heard, musically speaking, is primitive and repetitive; it subverts melody; a lot of people who perform it can't sing; and I dislike it.

But that doesn't automatically make it immoral.

Edited by mrmando

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As the writer puts it, "Rap music undermines authority as its jolting beat assaults the standards of musical form." But to me, that just begs the question of what standards he's talking about. (If he thinks rap assaults those standards, I wonder what he'd think of mash-up artists like Girl Talk and The Kleptones, who gleefully treat genres with great irreverence. Or even better yet, noise artists like Wolf Eyes, Yellow Swans, Black Dice, etc.)

...Or better yet, what he thinks of the pioneering black music from the first half of the 20th century.

Jazz was full of dirty euphemisms. Murder, adultery, revenge, sexual braggadocio, bad women and drunkenness were all pet topics of the blues greats. Never mind the abrasive and repetitive sonic nature of the blues form itself: you get three chords if you're lucky. Even then, the ramshackle musicians would frequently miss their changes in the studio. And many of the greats just vamped on a single chord for three minutes, while the singer growled and taunted the listener(see: half of Howling Wolf's entire catalog for examples of this) You call that music? ;)

White evangelicals and Bill Cosby seem to have forgotten this historical fact in their screeds against hip hop.

When white professors get their undies twisted up over rap's lyrical (anger against cops/authority, weed, bad women, etc..) and musical content, they merely display how utterly disconnected they are from the experiences of that culture.

Edited by Greg P

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I spend a fair portion of my time at work fighting against the idea that the kids' music isn't "real art", equally deserving of public support as say, ballets, operas, symphonies. What's crazy is that i feel that rap music is often, on the whole, more moral than much pop & rock music, which is content with songs about romance and relationships and individual experience. Even when rap music offers no hope (i.e. Lil Wayne's "Fuck The World") , it unflinchingly bears witness to social conditions, and indeed, to the human condition in a way that other genres tend to turn away from.

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I'm suggesting that the moral relationship between art and its consumers is more complicated than Walker may have supposed.

What specifically did he write that makes you suspect him of a simplistic view of the moral relationship between art and its consumers?

So moral art doesn't automatically make its consumers moral, and immoral art doesn't automatically confer immorality upon its consumers. The effect of art upon its consumers depends in great measure on many additional factors.

Obviously true. But, to push the question a step further, can we say "Hey, in the absence of other factors, this immoral art isn't conferring immorality upon me, so therefore I may unproblematically consume it"?

It sounds like this particular group of kids may have gotten enough moral instruction and commonsense education to realize that music lyrics shouldn't govern their lifestyle choices.

But not enough, apparently, to regard morally abhorrent lyrics with spontaneous abhorrence.

It's always appropriate to urge kids to think about the messages they're getting in art, and to encourage them to think on whatever is true, noble, pure, right, excellent, praiseworthy, etc. Walker admits all that, but he seems tempted to venture into the territory of "Turn off that crap, I don't like the beat" ... which AFAIK is not an effective way to engage kids in thinking about the moral dimensions of art.

I think he is right to look for meaning in musical styles and not just in lyrics, but I think he over-moralizes what music does. Music is not "neutral," but it also is not, I think, moral or immoral. It doesn't communicate attitudes. What it can do, I think, is move the passions. But the passions in themselves are neither good nor bad; it is how they are directed that makes them so.

On the other hand, music doesn't exist in a vacuum. Music, like clothing, speech patterns, and other cultural markers, are expressions of wider cultural milieux by which we and other people understand who we are. Such cultural markers matter; they do affect attitudes and behavior.

Edited by SDG

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What specifically did he write that makes you suspect him of a simplistic view of the moral relationship between art and its consumers?

I'm suspicious of the same couple of paragraphs that Opus is suspicious of, where Walker tries to make moral evaluations strictly on the basis of the style of the music. But I'm in general agreement with most of the rest of his article.

But, to push the question a step further, can we say "Hey, in the absence of other factors, this immoral art isn't conferring immorality upon me, so therefore I may unproblematically consume it"?

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of uncritically "consuming" any art at any time, no matter what its moral content. And the question of whether art confers morality/immorality upon its audience is often (I might say "usually" or "nearly always") the wrong question. Rather, "Is this art something I want to support? Is it intrinsically worthy of my time, attention, and money?"

I think he is right to look for meaning in musical styles and not just in lyrics, but I think he over-moralizes what music does. Music is not "neutral," but it also is not, I think, moral or immoral. It doesn't communicate attitudes. What it can do, I think, is move the passions. But the passions in themselves are neither good nor bad; it is how they are directed that makes them so.

Yes, I would agree with that. But I don't mean to be unfair to Walker, and I apologize if it seems that I was. We are talking about a couple of paragraphs that represent a misstep in an otherwise thoughtful article.

On the other hand, music doesn't exist in a vacuum. Music, like clothing, speech patterns, and other cultural markers, are expressions of wider cultural milieux by which we and other people understand who we are. Such cultural markers matter; they do affect attitudes and behavior.

Especially during the teenage years, which is why the types of engagements Walker is talking about are so critical.

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I'm suspicious of the same couple of paragraphs that Opus is suspicious of, where Walker tries to make moral evaluations strictly on the basis of the style of the music.

Yeah, there's a problem there, although I don't know that I would put it under the heading of "simplistic view of the moral relationship between art and its consumers." I think it's more "simplistic view of the moral relationship between music and meaning," as I tried to indicate.

But, to push the question a step further, can we say "Hey, in the absence of other factors, this immoral art isn't conferring immorality upon me, so therefore I may unproblematically consume it"?

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of uncritically "consuming" any art at any time, no matter what its moral content. And the question of whether art confers morality/immorality upon its audience is often (I might say "usually" or "nearly always") the wrong question.

I didn't say "uncritically," I said "unproblematically." As for "conferring," it's not my word and I'm happy to drop it. The question is, is it morally reasonable to conclude that I am not likely to be corrupted by morally abhorrent art and thus there is no reason not to make it a staple of my aesthetic diet? If something is abhorrent, should I not abhor it?

Rather, "Is this art something I want to support? Is it intrinsically worthy of my time, attention, and money?"

I dunno, that seems awfully, what, pragmatic or something. I would rather ask questions like these: "Does this art speak to me of the true, the good, the beautiful? Is it wholesome or abhorrent? Does it ennoble and elevate me, make me more human, or at least restore and rejuvenate me? If it subjects me to what is dehumanizing, degrading or otherwise objectionable, does it put this in its proper moral light and give me sufficient reason to explore such ugliness?"

Also, how we consume art matters. Most of us at A&F are accustomed to engaging movies and other art forms critically, but I suspect that popular music in particular is most often enjoyed in a comparatively noncritical mode. Watching a movie is generally an activity to which you give at least most of your attention; listening to music is something a great many people do while they're doing something else (driving, jogging, working). You might watch a given movie two or even three times in a year, but a popular song is often pervasive -- you can hear it every day, even multiple times a day. I suspect that for many people cultural identity is much more a matter of musical diet than movie diet.

All to say, if you fill your life with music with abhorrent lyrics, don't tell me about your critical skills and how it doesn't affect you. You have a moral problem.

understand who we are. Such cultural markers matter; they do affect attitudes and behavior.

Especially during the teenage years, which is why the types of engagements Walker is talking about are so critical.

Good point. Though I think they matter for me too.

Edited by SDG

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Even when rap music offers no hope (i.e. Lil Wayne's "Fuck The World") , it unflinchingly bears witness to social conditions, and indeed, to the human condition in a way that other genres tend to turn away from.

Yes. I mean, take for example the universal lyrical theme of the Bad Woman. White music has broached this countless times over the past century, from somber folk ditties to broken-hearted pop ballads and angry rock anthems. All fairly safe territory.

But early blues music addressed the familiar subject of betrayal and jealousy in a much more blunt manner-- offending white sensibilities in the process, but speaking to the human condition in a most unique fashion. In the narratives of the blues the just reward for such a woman was often quite simple: get your 22-20 and mow the bitch down. And oh yeah, chop up the interloper too and bury him in the pines.

In fact, I find the content of some old blues songs to equal or even rival modern rap in terms of brutality, anger and raw sexuality. All of which I mention, to simply say that such subversive or violent lyrical themes are not at all new to black music.

Black folk music has a strong tradition of the singer as narrator, spinning tales of conquest, justice and debauchery; all within the bubble of his own homespun mythology. In blues legend, the narrator was as virile as a stallion able to "shake the teeth up in the mouth" of his lovers; a boozy, gun-slinging cowboy riding out of the shadows, at once respected and feared by all. It doesn't take a musicologist to understand that such mythology was borne of oppression and feelings of powerlessness and hopelessness . The content of most rap songs today simply carries on this rich tradition, in my view.

All to say, if you fill your life with music with abhorrent lyrics, don't tell me about your critical skills and how it doesn't affect you. You have a moral problem.

Oh brother... :blink:

Edited by Greg P

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True enough, Greg, the other side of hiphop is its roots in the funk and soul music of the 60s and 70s--which blended gospel narratives and eschatological language with movement building, community and personal empowerment and affirmation, themes of social critique and mutual support. The tradition you describe accounts for the bleakness and occasional nihilism of contemporary hiphop. But only the most prejudiced, (like Walker, apparently) could miss the entire component of hiphop that's rooted in this conscious, positive tradition.

Again I say: that's racist!

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