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Tyler

Church Plans Bible Burning

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One of my Facebook friends posted a youtube video about a church In North Carolina that is planning to celebrate Halloween by burning books, including non-King James versions of the Bible, and music that they consider "satanic" and "perversions".

I thought the video might be a fake, but I found this story, and another with this quote listing authors on their "burn" list:

"We will also be burning Satan's popular books written by heretics like Billy Graham, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, John McArthur, James Dobson, Charles Swindoll, John Piper, Chuck Colson, Tony Evans, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swagart, Mark Driskol, Franklin Graham, Bill Bright, Tim Lahaye, Paula White, T.D. Jakes, Benny Hinn, Joyce Myers, Brian McLaren, Robert Schuller, Mother Teresa The Pope, Rob Bell, Erwin McManus, Donald Miller, Shane Claiborne, Brennan Manning (and) William Young."

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Looks like I didn't do the embedding right, so here's a

to the Youtube video.

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Just points to the age old issue of authority. Who has the authority to say what is heretical and what isn't. Who has the authority to say which books should be in the Bible in the first place? When you get rid of the Pope you don't have no pope you have a million popes.

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Just points to the age old issue of authority. Who has the authority to say what is heretical and what isn't. Who has the authority to say which books should be in the Bible in the first place? When you get rid of the Pope you don't have no pope you have a million popes.

Alternately, it could point to the presence of yahoos and yobs everywhere, even in churches. Most yahoos and yobs, indeed most humans, have authority issues, including the millions in the Catholic Church who routinely disregard the Church's teachings on birth control. There are gazillions of popes and popettes, and some of them even believe in transubstantiation.

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There is a very sound theological reason to not use birth control. Most people don't really understand it because the issues are complex. JPII does a good job of expanding on Humanae Vitae in his masterwork Theology of the Body. It is very difficult to understand for the layman. I tried reading it but the language is not something my ear is attuned to. I am reading through a commentary on TOB by Christopher West who does make the ideas contained in TOB comprehensible and I find them very compelling. So I trust in the authority of the Church, who has theologians who understand these things, and spend their lives digging into the truth and begin to make it comprehensible to people like me. There are people who know more than I do and understand things that I don't. I wish I had been taught these things when I was a protestant. I honestly believe my life would be better if my wife and I had not used birth control.

Just because there are millions of people who choose not to be faithful to church teaching really doesn't say anything about the validity of the authority of the Pope. My guess is most people disregard church teaching out of convenience and not based on any theological principles.

Since most humans have authority issues, does that mean we trust no authority besides ourselves? That seems to be more and more the case. To whom or what do you grant authority over your life?

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Jim Janknegt wrote:

: Just points to the age old issue of authority. Who has the authority to say what is heretical and what isn't. Who has the authority to say which books should be in the Bible in the first place? When you get rid of the Pope you don't have no pope you have a million popes.

Well, the Orthodox answer to your question has always been "the Church". And frankly, I can't recall when the Bishop of Rome ever did get around to saying which books were in the Bible. The New Testament assumed its present form circa AD 400, and its contents were never ruled on by an ecumenical council. As for the Old Testament, it has never been much of an issue in the East, where the Greek Septuagint was always the accepted text, but in the West, where Jerome's Latin translation of the Hebrew scriptures held sway, there was always some uncertainty about certain books, and the Reformation circa AD 1500 finally forced the two Western movements -- Catholicism and Protestantism -- to take sides on the matter.

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There is a very sound theological reason to not use birth control. Most people don't really understand it because the issues are complex. JPII does a good job of expanding on Humanae Vitae in his masterwork Theology of the Body. It is very difficult to understand for the layman. I tried reading it but the language is not something my ear is attuned to. I am reading through a commentary on TOB by Christopher West who does make the ideas contained in TOB comprehensible and I find them very compelling. So I trust in the authority of the Church, who has theologians who understand these things, and spend their lives digging into the truth and begin to make it comprehensible to people like me. There are people who know more than I do and understand things that I don't. I wish I had been taught these things when I was a protestant. I honestly believe my life would be better if my wife and I had not used birth control.

Just because there are millions of people who choose not to be faithful to church teaching really doesn't say anything about the validity of the authority of the Pope. My guess is most people disregard church teaching out of convenience and not based on any theological principles.

Since most humans have authority issues, does that mean we trust no authority besides ourselves? That seems to be more and more the case. To whom or what do you grant authority over your life?

Sure, but these are loonies who believe that only the KJV is infallible. Look, if it was good enough for Jesus, then it ought to be good enough for us. I'm sure there are dire cultural ramifications for the abandonment of a central spiritual authority, but I'm fairly convinced that these folks are outliers who would be loonies in any alternative, pope-loving universe you could conjure.

Edited by Andy Whitman

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I note that the burn list includes several authors (Tim LaHaye, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn) whose works I would want to burn if I had been silly enough to buy them in the first place. I just wonder where the books are coming from. Are the church's 14 members (yes, that's the size of it) merely purging their own shelves? Or did they perhaps go to thrift stores and buy up titles that were on the burn list?

No Buechner, Lamott, Annie Dillard, Thomas Merton?

I further note that the church is serving barbecued chicken at the burn event. Can one taste the difference between NIV chicken and NKJV chicken, I wonder?

There's a big KJV-only Web site here, if you've got a lot of time to waste.

Edited by mrmando

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I note that the burn list includes several authors (Tim LaHaye, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn) whose works I would want to burn if I had been silly enough to buy them in the first place.

It's common grace for The Worldwide Church of God's Revealed Secrets, Canton, North Carolina Synod. The fire falls on the good and the bad alike.

I just wonder where the books are coming from. Are the church's 14 members (yes, that's the size of it) merely purging their own shelves? Or did they perhaps go to thrift stores and buy up titles that were on the burn list?

That's this week. Next week there will only be 7 members (Pap, Ellie Mae, Junior, Clem, Sissy, Buddy, and Junior III) following the schism over biblical barbecuing theology and praxis.

No Buechner, Lamott, Annie Dillard, Thomas Merton?

As if. This purge is for so-called "Christian" authors.

Edited by Andy Whitman

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I know Billy Graham has his detractors, but you have to be pretty hardcore to live in North Carolina and call Billy a heretic. Wonder if Pastor Grizzard is a local boy, or if he moved up from Texas or one of them places.

Of all the names on the list, I'm most surprised to see John McArthur, Dean of Ye Olde Doctrinaire Calvinists. Which hair did HE forget to split, I wonder?

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KJV only-ers are interesting, if odd, folks. Had some friends in college get sucked into it. ITs like Amway--sorta cultish, but close enough to normalcy to not notice you're getting snookered until its too late--turn or burn! They were a really odd mix, though, KJV only + Hyper Calvinist. Usually the Reformed and the TRs don't get along.

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I know Billy Graham has his detractors, but you have to be pretty hardcore to live in North Carolina and call Billy a heretic.

I worked at a Billy Graham crusade when I lived in Nashville. One of my most vivid memories was a post-service confrontation with the anti-Grahamers in the parking area. The place was swarming with these folks, I tell ya-- maybe a couple hundred strong. They had signs and they had tracts and books and they were right up in people's faces, hollering their judgments. They even had a website, and this was the late 90's i believe, so they were really on the ball for the time.

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I know Billy Graham has his detractors, but you have to be pretty hardcore to live in North Carolina and call Billy a heretic. Wonder if Pastor Grizzard is a local boy, or if he moved up from Texas or one of them places.

Back when I was at the gulag (IN NORTH CAROLINA), the buildings and grounds guy was heavily anti-Graham. Bob Jones was the big anti-BG proselytizer back then, as was John R. Rice (Murfreesboro, TN) who would have nothing to do with Jones.

Of all the names on the list, I'm most surprised to see John McArthur, Dean of Ye Olde Doctrinaire Calvinists. Which hair did HE forget to split, I wonder?

Sheesh, nobody but Calvinists like Calvinists. Fundies never cottoned to that sort of thing. The mere fact that Reformed thought advances rigorous and systematic analysis of the scriptures is enough to arouse suspicion. Simple literalism is fancied as the foundation of faith despite the myriad questions that might pose.

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I've been meaning to start a New KJV-only cult and l think I shall start by picking a fight with these heretics. (Everyone here is next.)

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Back when I was at the gulag (IN NORTH CAROLINA), the buildings and grounds guy was heavily anti-Graham.

That's why he was the groundskeeper and not one of the trustees! Still, that's pretty bold, considering the proximity, let alone the organizational ties, between Graham and the gulag.

Bob Jones was the big anti-BG proselytizer back then, as was John R. Rice (Murfreesboro, TN) who would have nothing to do with Jones.

Ah yes, BJ ... yet another reason why moving the gulag to the OTHER Carolina feels like such a betrayal to former inmates.

Sheesh, nobody but Calvinists like Calvinists. Fundies never cottoned to that sort of thing. The mere fact that Reformed thought advances rigorous and systematic analysis of the scriptures is enough to arouse suspicion. Simple literalism is fancied as the foundation of faith despite the myriad questions that might pose.

Ah, so when these folks call themselves Baptist, they don't mean THAT kind of Baptist.

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Why am I not surprised this nutcase went to the school I grew up around and attended for a couple years, associated with the church I grew up in? Though to be fair, I found that out by googling the name of an old friend of mine who died this week after teaching Bible classes at two universities for 55 years, and his name was in a list of "liberal professors" on that guy's website - i.e. professors who weren't KJV only.

No surprises on that book list for me. Of course you would burn books from a liberal like Billy Graham. My great grandfather John R. Rice led the split away from Graham in '57, and "true conservatives" have never looked back. And when I left the church I grew up in and started attending the less Fundamentalist church, the pastor made sure to remind the congregation at least once a year that Mother Teresa is in hell.

I still remember going to our church camp when I was about 12 years old and having the counselor rip a Bible out of a kid's hands - a kid from the inner city who had just "gotten saved" - and throwing it down the mountain into the brush outside our dorm room because it was NIV, not KJV.

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Why am I not surprised this nutcase went to the school I grew up around and attended for a couple years, associated with the church I grew up in?

At least he went to school.

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Ah yes, BJ ... yet another reason why moving the gulag to the OTHER Carolina feels like such a betrayal to former inmates.

In defense of Ben Lippen, even I saw that there was a difference between Greeneville and Columbia. Even when I was there (in the Asheville iteration). There was no avoiding WMUU because the signal was so big. However at the very least, BJ students were practically ADULTS volunteering for that oppressive atmosphere. We were still kids who couldn't sign legally binding contracts. The gulag fostered an Us v Them mentality, but from a POV of evangelising the world, not closing oneself off from even most co-religiionists and enshrining such separation in what passes for high theological terms. Come to think of it, one of my required book purchases my first year that was supposed to last my career was a hardcover ASV for class study even though KJV was pretty much universally used. Still have the impossible to find relic.

SC is a whole 'nother world. But even today there is a differnce between Columbia and Greeneville. Remember that movement that got publicity a few years ago? The Fundie secessionist movement that wanted to overload the state and attempt secession? It was targetting the upper portion of the state, in the mountains. In Greeneville and environs. I don't know if BJU was involved, it was never mentioned on what I read.

Edited by Rich Kennedy

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By my quick mental count, if one more person after me adds to this thread, there will officially be as many of us discussing the book burning as there are members of the church doing it. At that point I vote we find something else to talk about.

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Rob Bell

No Buechner, Lamott, Annie Dillard, Thomas Merton?

As if. This purge is for so-called "Christian" authors.

I feel quite privileged that my Pastor/Teacher/Artist made the list. Although at the moment I am currently in a phase where I am geographically challenged from attending, I still consider it the greatest thing that's ever happened to me and I look forward to getting my butt back there ASAP.

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Okay, that's twelve.

For that matter, I wonder how many members of Amazing Grace Baptist Church's members are related to one another. They're probably like two of three families and two or three hangers-on... So already our discussion is bigger than their book-burning.

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At least he went to school.

Don't think he learned a lot there. Here's an excerpt from his website:

I remember when I went away to Tennessee Temple University at the age of seventeen. Being such a young immature young man I didn’t realize how much was wrong with going off to a “Bible” College. Especially, one that did not believe the Bible no longer. I just assumed that its stand on the Word of God was the same as it had always been since its beginning. Boy was I wrong! Like most that go to college, they think that whatever the professor says is the truth or gospel. What do I know? There the ones with the degree. There the ones who have Dr. in front of their name. Who am I to say that they are wrong, or to argue with them? The very first month, Dr. Fred Afman, Dr. Dalphus Price, Dr. J. Don Jennings, and others began to tell me that "the Bible was not the Word of God. Meaning that I should not use the King James Bible. Instead, get me a good NIV or a RSV, or anything as long as it’s not the King James." I was almost made fun of if I carried a KJV, instead of the Modern Versions. At first I did not understand, but who was I compared to them? So I gave in, and bought a NIV. Shortly thereafter, I came home for a few days. I was somewhat proud of what I had learned in such a short period of time, so I began to share some of those things with my dad. The Bible issue came up and I showed him my new Bible. As soon as he saw it, I could tell he was highly disappointed in my decision. He set me down and began to show me with the Word of God, the King James, my error and sin. I would quote some “scholar” at school or some New Age believer like Bruce Metzger but he would always go back to the Bible to refute it. My dad taught me that day, to never change from the King James no matter what. It doesn’t matter what the “scholars” (false teachers) say, the liberals say, the modernist say, my friends say, my church says, my family says, my wife says, my children say, my teachers say, STAND FOR THE WORD OF GOD THE KING JAMES BIBLE. I don’t care what anyone thinks on this issue and what your shallow thoughts are. I want be moved. That day I learned that my daddy knew a whole lot more that Dr. Price, Dr. Afman and , Bruce Metzger. Even though he didn’t have the degree, or have the college education as them, he was wiser. You may ask, “Do you believe in the King James Bible just because your daddy said so?” I believe that is a good enough reason, if I had nothing else to go on. Since that time I have thousands of reasons to believe in the KJV and not the false perverted versions. I thank my God that I had a daddy that taught me right concerning the Word of God. I went back to school with my King James Bible and been carring it for twenty-five years. My dad has been using and standing for the King James Version for over forty-five years. Thanks daddy! I love you!

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:zw9NgsFxgBYJ:amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com/news1.html

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I bet if I planned a KJV bible burning I would become a national celebrity.

Mentioned in the same breath as Billy Graham and Mother Teresa.

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By my quick mental count, if one more person after me adds to this thread, there will officially be as many of us discussing the book burning as there are members of the church doing it. At that point I vote we find something else to talk about.

I've got a better idea. My Dad just moved from Heywood County last year. I know this area well. Canton ain't so cool, but nearby Waynesville is GORGEOUS. Heck, let's all join and vote these, uh, brothers and sisters down. Won't take many of us and the color this time of year is incomparable.

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Mentioned in the same breath as Billy Graham and Mother Teresa.

Nuts. I was going for Obama and Brian McLaren.

Edited by MLeary

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