Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Darrel Manson

Habemus Papam! Pope Francis of Argentina (Was Benedict to resign)

216 posts in this topic

Since it hasn't happened since the 13th C., press not really clear what they're suppose to call it. Regardless the Pope is stepping down.

I don't post this link to cheapen the process (which by it's nature it does), but here are the early odds on who will be the next pope. It does give an idea of who has a chance to come out of the conclave as the next Pope.

For the Catholic among us, I'm interested on your take of his decision (which seems to make sense to me), what you thought of Benedict's pontificate, and your thoughts on what the conclave should be looking for in his successor.

Edited by SDG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The canonical term is "resign," although even knowledgeable Catholics are getting that wrong.

Frankly, it's heroic that he hung in there as long as he did. He really, really didn't want the job. He didn't even want his last job as prefect of the CDF; tried to retire like four times, but Pope John Paul II rejected his resignations. Well, I doubt his current Boss will do the same.

Some good first thoughts from my friend Jimmy Akin.

1. I’m disappointed. I think Pope Benedict is an amazing teacher, and I have truly valued his time as pope.

3. It’s not entirely a surprise. He himself has said things before that indicated this could someday be a live possibility for him.

6. While there were no resignations for almost 600 years, just as there were no non-Italian popes for 450 years, we’re probably going to see more of both in the future...

...the on-the-job demands for a pope have gone up in recent years. Being the leader and public face of the billion-member Catholic Church in a time of rapid change and diminishing faith is not an easy task.

At the same time, advancing medical technology means increasingly long lifespans with a longer period of frail health.

It is not easy to be eighty five (Pope Benedict’s age) or ninety or ninety five and feel confident steering the ship of Peter in today’s world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For the Catholic among us, I'm interested on your take of his decision (which seems to make sense to me), what you thought of Benedict's pontificate, and your thoughts on what the conclave should be looking for in his successor.

It increases my respect for him. He knows the Church very well and can judge whether a man of his age and energy is able to do what he must do.

For me, I find myself associating my emotions right now with those of one of my most powerful childhood memories--seeing Cal Ripken decide to end his streak at 2,632, on his own terms and without an injury or other problem forcing his hand. (For the record, I went to Wikipedia to check that number, but I was right. It is emblazoned on my memory.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Among the hilarious (sometimes purposefully, sometimes inadvertently) responses to today's news, well... this story exists.

On a more serious note, I hope this decision enables him to write more. I've been so blessed by his books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm saddened to see him resign, but I understand and respect his decision. I thought we were very blessed to have Benedict XVI for pope, and I trust the Holy Spirit to guide the conclave in appointing a successor. And I agree with all of Jimmy Akin's observations.

Edited by Evan C

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a non Catholic I don't feel too much either way, but then I also didn't follow John Paul or Benedict as much as my wife who had this to say...

I respect Benedict for standing firm in his convictions and leading according to his conscience rather than by what would make him popular. I also respected JP2 for trying to build bridges between the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches of the world. Anyway, his electon to the papacy always surprised me - I assumed the cardinals would choose someone more liberal - so I am sure it has been a difficult road for him. I hope he will find peace and be blessed in retiremnt.

I hope God blesses him in his continued faith journey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've repeatedly said that how I think about faith, religion and Christianity has largely been shaped by three living Christian thinkers, from three different confessions (in each of which I spent a significant part of my life):

  • a Dutch Calvinist (the tradition of my childhood), Alvin Plantinga;
  • an Anglican (the tradition of my adolescence), N. T. Wright; and
  • a Catholic, Joseph Ratzinger.

Interestingly, I discovered them in reverse order to my biography: Ratzinger came first, then Wright, and last Plantinga.

Ratzinger's Introduction to Christianity and many other books of his have been profoundly helpful to me. I loved and appreciated John Paul II, but Ratzinger is much more on my wavelength. He scratches where I itch.

I loved Ratzinger long before he was elected pope, so his election to the Chair of Peter eight years ago was a stunning moment for me and many others. I can't imagine any outcome of the next papal conclave being so instantly euphoric, even if the next pope ultimately turns out to be even better.

Edited by SDG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ross Douthat has been tweeting some interesting points about B16's legacy viz-a-viz JP2's, e.g.:

The camp of Catholics who prefer Benedict to John Paul is small today, but I suspect that history will be kind to our perspective.

Benedict's writings will long outlast JPII's, his record on abuse is insufficient but much better, his episcopal appointments are better ...

... and he was a crucial partner in the (partial) internal reinvigoration that JPII accomplished in the 1980s and 1990s.

Likewise on liturgical issues: I'm not a Latin Mass-goer, but Benedict's instincts on the liturgy are going to look wise in the long term.

JPII was *geopolitically* significant pope, bc of Cold War role. But on matters internal to the church, Benedict may cast a longer shadow.

There's also a liberal-Catholic re-reading of BXVI's pontificate waiting to happen. (Left on JP on economics, less of a culture warrior ...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Among the hilarious (sometimes purposefully, sometimes inadvertently) responses to today's news, well... this story exists.

What I found interesting looking through the odds on the table I linked to was that Tony Blair has much longer odds (5000:1) and Richard Dawkins has shorter (666:1)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Connected to the talk about odds, I'd note that this evenings news was talking about how there are very good chances that the next Pope might be a Canadian.

Of course this would fit in just fine with the Canadian plan of world domination. We've already been quietly controlling the States for decades. pope.gif

Edited by Attica

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course this would fit in just fine with the Canadian plan of world domination. We've already been quietly controlling the States for decades. pope.gif

Fighting the urge to desecrate a Pope thread with the South Park movie song...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Among the hilarious (sometimes purposefully, sometimes inadvertently) responses to today's news, well... this story exists.

What I found interesting looking through the odds on the table I linked to was that Tony Blair has much longer odds (5000:1) and Richard Dawkins has shorter (666:1)

It would be a pretty unexpected choice. wink.png

It would be so dark and edgy.

Edited by Thom Wade

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thom Wade wrote:

: It would be so dark and edgy.

<facebook> Like! </facebook>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A question of form: when he steps down will he continue to be Benedict or go back to being Joseph Ratzinger?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A question of form: when he steps down will he continue to be Benedict or go back to being Joseph Ratzinger?

It's not clear yet. It will really be up to him, since there is no protocol for it. My guess: He'll go back to Ratzinger. Benedict is his papal name, and "there is no room in the Church for a pope emeritus" (John Paul II).

If he won't be pope emeritus, what will he be? Bishop emeritus of Rome seems like a good bet. It seems clear that he will not be a cardinal, unless his successor renames him to that station. (Being over 80, he isn't eligible to vote in conclaves, even if that wouldn't just be too weird anyway.)

Of course, in a sense, it's largely a moot point, since Benedict's goal will be to vanish from the public eye, to a monastery in Vatican City. He won't be writing any more books, doing any interviews, or making any public appearances. So, generally speaking, people won't address him as anything.

Edited by SDG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Love it! The Sweet Sistine!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, The Moynihan Report:

First, Pope Benedict has not decided to “resign” his office, but to renounce it. The distinction is important. He will not be a “retired Pope,” but he will be, according to Vatican officials I spoke with today, simply “Cardinal Ratzinger” once again. There will be no danger of “two Popes” — this present Pope will no longer be a Pope, not even a retired one. (But even to write that causes me to shake my head a bit at the strangeness of the words.)

Second, the decision was not really “unexpected.” In fact, almost three years ago, in mid-2010, in an article entitled “The Celestine Sign,” I argued that the Pope was giving us a hint that he was considering abdicating his papacy. (Here is a link the the complete article:
) . . .

I mainly wanted to post the first quoted paragraph, in response to a question raised earlier in this thread, but I thought the second quoted paragraph (and the unquoted paragraphs that follow) was interesting too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, The Moynihan Report:

First, Pope Benedict has not decided to “resign” his office, but to renounce it. The distinction is important. He will not be a “retired Pope,” but he will be, according to Vatican officials I spoke with today, simply “Cardinal Ratzinger” once again. There will be no danger of “two Popes” — this present Pope will no longer be a Pope, not even a retired one. (But even to write that causes me to shake my head a bit at the strangeness of the words.)

Thus, averting a situation that could have shattered the timestream.
:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the deal with Dubuque?

Oh... nevermind. I get it. Go Loras!

Edited by M. Leary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, heck, this wouldn't be the first time there were two Catholic Popes. They've even had three. wink.png

And the result from tempting fate? Protestantism! The shattering of the Christian timeline into a million alternate timelines in conflict! wink.png

(hoping this is at least enjoyable for the comic/sci-fi fans on the board-the rest of you just have to fend for yourselves)

Edited by Thom Wade

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, The Moynihan Report:

First, Pope Benedict has not decided to “resign” his office, but to renounce it. The distinction is important. He will not be a “retired Pope,” but he will be, according to Vatican officials I spoke with today, simply “Cardinal Ratzinger” once again. There will be no danger of “two Popes” — this present Pope will no longer be a Pope, not even a retired one. (But even to write that causes me to shake my head a bit at the strangeness of the words.)

So this appears to be pretty much complete nonsense.

The English version of the Code of Canon Law (332.2 Eng) uses the word "resign." This is the only canonical basis for a pope leaving office, so it's definitely the canon Benedict is invoking.

This is even clearer when you realize that in the Latin original (332.2. Lat) the word rendered "resign" in English is renuntiatio, literally "renounce." This is the exact word Benedict used ("Declaro me ministerio Episcopi Romae, Successoris Sancti Petri…renuntiare” ("I declare that I renounce the office of Bishop of Rome, successor of Saint Peter").

So the "distinction" that Moynihan thinks is so "important" is actually just a reflection of how the Code of Canon Law was translated into English versus how the pope's actual remarks were translated into English (by Vatican information services, apparently; perhaps Vatican Radio).

(Incidentally, the story of the pope announcing his resignation was broken by an Italian journalist who scooped all the other reporters present because she was the only one who understood Latin!)

The idea that Benedict will be a cardinal also appears to be wrong. Almost certainly he won't be considered one automatically; the pope is not a cardinal, but the head of the college of cardinals, so he'd have to be renamed to the college by his successor, which seems highly unlikely. A bad precedent, for one thing.

Saying Benedict won't be a "retired pope" is meaningless because that's not the language of the Church. He won't be "pope emeritus" because there is no such thing. As I said above, bishop of Rome emeritus seems like a good bet.

Second, the decision was not really “unexpected.” In fact, almost three years ago, in mid-2010, in an article entitled “The Celestine Sign,” I argued that the Pope was giving us a hint that he was considering abdicating his papacy.

Actually, if you read the linked article, what he really says is, "I am not suggesting Pope Benedict XVI is thinking of following in the footsteps of the saintly Pope Celestine and resigning. I am suggesting that the studious Pope Benedict and the studious monk-Pope are “connected” in a mysterious way." Whatever that means. Although he does seem to have picked up on the possibility that Benedict's actions could be interpreted as a hint that he was contemplating resigning, even if he distanced himself from that interpretation.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't this poor dude just move to Tampa, buy a golf cart, and play canasta with the Myerson's from Akron?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0