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Also, are we to assume that Jacob allowed himself to die so that he could communicate with Hurley and the Fu Manchi Other Others about the importance of Sayid? And that Sayid is in some way the new Jacob?

Edited by MLeary

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Not me. I think the linchpin as to Jacob is Christian Shepherd, and that's why he's missing in the alternate timeline. I think Sayid fills out the Seven Samurai and is a necessary part of the "they" dying Jacob mentions in last season's finale.

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Not me. I think the linchpin as to Jacob is Christian Shepherd, and that's why he's missing in the alternate timeline. I think Sayid fills out the Seven Samurai and is a necessary part of the "they" dying Jacob mentions in last season's finale.

I think Christian Shepherd is a manifestation of Flocke/Man in Black. He seems to have done a lot to help out in creating the previously mentioned loophole.

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Jin, Hurley, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Sawyer, Miles--Jacob's heroes, each with their role to play for rescuing the Other others from the Other other others. All under the tutelage of an unfortunately not bald Japanese master. Also unfortunately, no one actor nor combination thereof as cool as Toshiro Mifune's loose cannon faker.

And while the production quality of Lost is really high (except for circa 1998 CGI), no shots have touched the hem of Kurosawa's kimono. Or whatever.

Edited by Buckeye Jones

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Not me. I think the linchpin as to Jacob is Christian Shepherd, and that's why he's missing in the alternate timeline. I think Sayid fills out the Seven Samurai and is a necessary part of the "they" dying Jacob mentions in last season's finale.

I think Christian Shepherd is a manifestation of Flocke/Man in Black. He seems to have done a lot to help out in creating the previously mentioned loophole.

Plus, when they went to "Jacob's" cabin last season, they said that he hadn't been there in a while. Last person we saw in there was Christian, who said he wasn't Jacob, but could speak on his behalf. Which could mean just that, or it could be something more sinister.

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The reference to Seven Samurai? Nope, all me. But dying Jacob's reference to "they're coming" I think can only mean the gathering of our heroes.

Not so fast on Christian = Flocke (or Smocke, if you prefer yet another mashup). Christian's aid to Locke started the machinations of the return of Jack and Co, even if Locke himself would die in the process. It was Flocke, not Christian, who told time-jumping Locke that he needed to die to bring things to conclusion. That, I think, is the loophole.

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What are the Asian guy and his translator from? I've seen them both places, but neither showed up on the IMDB page from my iPhone.

The Asian guy is Hiroyuki Sanada (Sunshine, Twilight Samurai). The translator is John Hawkes (Miami Vice, Me and You and Everyone We Know).

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SPOILERS

From what I understand, the whole parallel timeline thing is intentionally following Gottfried Leibniz's "best of all possible worlds" theory. So "[the bomb] worked," as Juliet put it, but just in creating a parallel timeline that's NOT the best possible world. So by thinking that preventing the crash of Oceanic 815 was the best for the world, maybe, in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't?

The show's creators have also mentioned that theodicy will be a theme. Very interesting.

That said, I felt like the premiere was 45 minutes worth of show spread wafer thin over two hours. (With a whole lotta commercials, natch.) The dialogue was terrible, the non-stop use of slow-mo sequences was painful, the CGI swoop of the sunken island reminded me of a screensaver my parents had on their new IBM back in 1995. But it was still riveting, and some of the acting was just top notch. (Sawyer's "I'm gonna kill Jack" schtick got old seasons ago, though, and I hate that it's back.)

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(Sawyer's "I'm gonna kill Jack" schtick got old seasons ago, though, and I hate that it's back.)

Oh but this time it's actually somewhat justified, which made those looks he was throwing at Jack all the more awesome.

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(Sawyer's "I'm gonna kill Jack" schtick got old seasons ago, though, and I hate that it's back.)

But it is not back. :)

I felt last season that Jack was missing the big picture. Undoing all the misery landing on the island caused? But without it? Rose likely dies of cancer. Jin and Sun do not repair their marriage, nor is their daughter ever born. And that's just for starters. Look at all the stuff going wrong for everyone now. I agree that what we are glimpsing is a parallel timeline, or possibly two competing timelines, one that will result in having to be fixed to re-align things.

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What are the Asian guy and his translator from? I've seen them both places, but neither showed up on the IMDB page from my iPhone.

The Asian guy is Hiroyuki Sanada (Sunshine, Twilight Samurai). The translator is John Hawkes (Miami Vice, Me and You and Everyone We Know).

I recognized John Hawkes from Deadwood but it took a while to figure out that is where I had seen him before.

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(Sawyer's "I'm gonna kill Jack" schtick got old seasons ago, though, and I hate that it's back.)

But it is not back. smile.gif

I felt last season that Jack was missing the big picture. Undoing all the misery landing on the island caused? But without it? Rose likely dies of cancer. Jin and Sun do not repair their marriage, nor is their daughter ever born. And that's just for starters. Look at all the stuff going wrong for everyone now. I agree that what we are glimpsing is a parallel timeline, or possibly two competing timelines, one that will result in having to be fixed to re-align things.

What's fascinating about this is that it is not clear cut--some of the Losties have better lots in the alt timeline, some don't. (Apparently, right, since we've only seen 40 min of it and most of that was commercials).

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SPOILERS

From what I understand, the whole parallel timeline thing is intentionally following Gottfried Leibniz's "best of all possible worlds" theory.

Ha! I have always watched the show that way, but didn't know they were actually aware of Leibniz. There is also a lot of Molina in what they do, especially with the creation of this additional time line. I bet there were a lot of Molinists out there who cheered during this episode. Well, there aren't a lot of Molinists out there, but if William Lane Craig watches Lost, I bet he cheered during this episode. Or I should say, there is a possible world in which William Lane Craig would have cheered if he had watched this episode of Lost.

Otherwise, it bugs me when people use the word theodicy when they are actually addressing the problem of evil through polytheism or henotheism. Is this word used in interviews about Lost with the writers? This makes Leibniz a hazardous source for Lost plotlines, as his entire theodicy was monotheistic by rationale, and then there is the fact that the new possible world conjured out of the plot really doesn't look that good. Oddly, the island was, initially at least, the best possible world for all of these characters. If the show is a Leibniz riff, then Locke has become Voltaire.

Edited by MLeary

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Otherwise, it bugs me when people use the word theodicy when they are actually addressing the problem of evil through polytheism or henotheism. Is this word used in interviews about Lost with the writers? This makes Leibniz a hazardous source for Lost plotlines, as his entire theodicy was monotheistic by rationale, and then there is the fact that the new possible world conjured out of the plot really doesn't look that good. Oddly, the island was, initially at least, the best possible world for all of these characters. If the show is a Leibniz riff, then Locke has become Voltaire.

The interview I read (which, try as I may, I cannot remember where I found it) didn't have the creators bring up theodicy, but the interviewer did (monotheistically). He also seemed to know what it meant.

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I think Kierkegaard also was name-checked in this episode--one of his books fell out of the dead frenchie's pack. I believe Jeff Jensen's column on ew.com referenced it as dealing with a Knight of Faith who accepts the absurd yet presses on to victory. But I'm not proficient in philosopherese, so I don't know.

Edited by Buckeye Jones

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I think Kierkegaard also was name-checked in this episode--one of his books fell out of the dead frenchie's pack. I believe Jeff Jensen's column on ew.com referenced it as dealing with a Knight of Faith who accepts the absurd yet presses on to victory. But I'm not proficient in philosopherese, so I don't know.

It was Fear and Trembling, I believe.

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I think Kierkegaard also was name-checked in this episode--one of his books fell out of the dead frenchie's pack. I believe Jeff Jensen's column on ew.com referenced it as dealing with a Knight of Faith who accepts the absurd yet presses on to victory. But I'm not proficient in philosopherese, so I don't know.

It was Fear and Trembling, I believe.

That is correct. Given that Kierkegaard is my favorite philosopher, I cheered simply at the sight of that book.

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I recognize the Kierkegaard-lite character of pretty much every deus ex machina in the Lost story arc, but paradoxically, the Lost universe is not open to theology proper. We can always use more Kierkegaard on TV. But linguistically, analytically, neither Kierkegaard or Leibniz could exist in the Lost narrative universe in such a way that would also preserve the core nuances of their thought.

On the other hand, Desmond and Charlie do make several very Kierkegaardian leaps at different points in the story arc. In which case, the whole knight of faith reference does almost cohere. Especially with Desmond, who reflects Kierkegaard's fondness for romantic fables as examples of his ideas about faith.

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Next ep tonight. What Kate Does. Referencing What Kate Did, an earlier (season 1? 2?) episode in which she blows up her stepfather.

I've never been a Kate hater--I think I took issue with Evangeline Lily once and got chastised by Ron way back when in this thread. But I'd rather have a Hurley episode after all the stage setting from last week.

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So, apparently Carlton and Cuse only had 17 hours of story but 18 hours contracted.

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Yawn. Jack's angry. Sawyer is sulking. They're captive to the Others. Is it Season 3 already?

But then there was the last ten minutes. Ethan in the flash sideways. Claire returns.

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Yeah, they lost us last night as well. It seems like they are having to build another reboot mini-Lost to create enough detail for whatever conclusion we are aiming towards.

And Jack, don't take the greenish-brown pill.

Edited by MLeary

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