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Top 100 & Top 25 Horror: Standardization and Corrections


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#1 Anna J

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:30 PM

This is the place to point out mistakes in the Top100 2011 list, like wrong years, or weirdly translated titles, etc. The IMAGE staff and interns are not as familiar with these films as all of you (and the interns doing it now are not the same ones who did it last year!), so we warmly welcome your input.

Last year I believe we made an executive decision to list the English translation of the title followed by the original title. I think we did this because we were crunched for time. This year we'd like to take it case by case. For example, Ron Reed (and others) pointed out that Ikiru is almost never translated as "To Live." It would be better in this case just to list it as Ikiru.

Another example: Into Great Silence is known pretty well by its alternate title, Die Grosse Stille. However, the director prefers the English title. So that would be something to talk about here.

We're open to anything, since this list belongs to YOU, the voters. Please help us notice anomalies and quirks, and tell us why a title should be listed a certain way.

Thanks!

Anna

#2 SDG

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 02:15 PM

This is definitely an area to avoid the hobgoblins of a foolish consistency. Nobody refers in English to Au Hasard Balthazar or Ikiru as anything other than their foreign language names, but of course other films like Tokyo Story and Wild Strawberries are usually referred to in translation.

Then there are films where the usual English title isn't a translation of the original foreign title, e.g., Francesco, Guillare de Dio means "Francis, God's Jester," but the usual English title is The Flowers of St. Francis. (Occasionally a film has more than one English title; witness the Criterion Collection's decision to use the literal translation of Ladri di biciclette, Bicycle Thieves, rather than the traditional English title The Bicycle Thief.

For Into Great Silence, even though it is the director's preferred title, I think the film's name in its country of origin should also be included. I mentioned it because currently we have the French title, Le Grand Silence, rather than the German title, Die grosse Stille. I don't think the French title makes sense.

#3 Andrew

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 02:32 PM

Thanks for asking, Anna.

I think I've picked up a few:
#3 - I believe it's usually referred to first as Ordet
#66 - IMDB has a different spelling for the alternative title of Silent Light
#68 - accent placement is incorrect on the alt titles for A Man Escaped - IMDB has it right
#97 - IMDB has a different spelling for the full alt title of Sophie Scholl

#4 Persona

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 02:33 PM

We appreciate your work, Anna and the interns. And Greg, too!

Another example: Into Great Silence is known pretty well by its alternate title, Die Grosse Stille. However, the director prefers the English title. So that would be something to talk about here.

I have never seen Die Grosse Stille before today. I have always seen this film in English. The people on the boards have never used a title other than Into Great Silence before today.

Obviously, Ordet is the title of the Dreyer masterpiece. (Which I still cannot believe slipped to #3).

I agree with Ron about the title of Ikiru, but not the ALA PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICHES everyone thinks it is.

La Promesse should stay as La Promesse.

#43 Code Unknown is inconsistent in how it is written. The seven word title in the film itself is separated by a cut. First screen: Code inconnu. Second screen: Récit incomplet de divers voyages. The KINO VIDEO DVD says Code Unknown on the front, and on the inside, too -- but on the back, in smaller print, it reads Code Unknown: Incomplete Tales of Several Journeys. The film is referred to on IMDB as seven words, but is talked about in film circles a simply Code Unknown, and that's the way I prefer to see it. I personally think the tag is horribly cheesy. Whether it is actually the rest of the title of the film is up for interpretation.

#46 The Child. I think all of the Dardennes' work except for Lorna's Silence, which doesn't apply here, should be in the original language. So, IMO, this should be L'Enfant, though IMDB doesn't agree with that so I guess an argument will ensue.

I don't know what to think about #73 My Life to Live ("Vivre sa vie: Film en douze tableaux") (1962)... I think the general understanding of the Godard is in English.

And Sophie Scholl I've always known as just that. You say the words "Sophie Scholl," not the full title, whether it is in English or in German, and everyone knows what you're talking about. But I can see this one going either way. The part after the colon is just weird sounding to me.

Edited by Persona, 01 February 2011 - 02:35 PM.


#5 SDG

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 03:03 PM

I have never seen Die Grosse Stille before today.

You still haven't seen Die grosse Stille. You need to set aside three hours or so.

Obviously, Ordet is the title of the Dreyer masterpiece. (Which I still cannot believe slipped to #3).

I'm not unhappy about it though. I prefer The Passion of Joan of Arc.

La Promesse should stay as La Promesse.

Agreed.

#46 The Child. I think all of the Dardennes' work except for Lorna's Silence, which doesn't apply here, should be in the original language. So, IMO, this should be L'Enfant, though IMDB doesn't agree with that so I guess an argument will ensue.

This is one where both title should be included.

And Sophie Scholl I've always known as just that. You say the words "Sophie Scholl," not the full title, whether it is in English or in German, and everyone knows what you're talking about. But I can see this one going either way. The part after the colon is just weird sounding to me.

Let's not go redaction crazy here. This is a formal list; the full title should be used.

Edited by SDG, 01 February 2011 - 03:03 PM.


#6 Persona

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 03:12 PM

I have never seen Die Grosse Stille before today.

You still haven't seen Die grosse Stille. You need to set aside three hours or so.

Dude, we've been through this. I need the sandwiches. And I make me some BIG DAGWOOD type sandwiches late at night. If it doesn't take twenty minutes to make a sandwich, you haven't really made a sandwich at all.

Lately I've actually noticed that if I sit down to a film about 10:30 or 11 at night, I have the urge for a sandwich like ten minutes into the film. Film has become the Pavlovian dog to me...

Obviously, Ordet is the title of the Dreyer masterpiece. (Which I still cannot believe slipped to #3).

I'm not unhappy about it though. I prefer The Passion of Joan of Arc.

That is because there is something wrong with you. We all knew this already.

La Promesse should stay as La Promesse.

Agreed.

Finally! Now you see who has the upper hand.

#46 The Child. I think all of the Dardennes' work except for Lorna's Silence, which doesn't apply here, should be in the original language. So, IMO, this should be L'Enfant, though IMDB doesn't agree with that so I guess an argument will ensue.

This is one where both title should be included.

But which language first?

And Sophie Scholl I've always known as just that. You say the words "Sophie Scholl," not the full title, whether it is in English or in German, and everyone knows what you're talking about. But I can see this one going either way. The part after the colon is just weird sounding to me.

Let's not go redaction crazy here. This is a formal list; the full title should be used.

Formal schmormal. I outta redact YOU!

Edited by Persona, 01 February 2011 - 03:15 PM.


#7 SDG

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 03:20 PM

This is one where both title should be included.

But which language first?

Ah, here I think there should probably be a rule. If the English title is familiar enough to include at all, put it first, with the foreign name in parens. If the English title is omitted, then use the foreign title, no parens. Flip-flopping the languages back and forth seems silly to me.

#8 Persona

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 03:26 PM

Agreed.

#9 M. Leary

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 03:29 PM

I have never seen Die Grosse Stille before today.

You still haven't seen Die grosse Stille. You need to set aside three hours or so.

Dude, we've been through this. I need the sandwiches. And I make me some BIG DAGWOOD type sandwiches late at night. If it doesn't take twenty minutes to make a sandwich, you haven't really made a sandwich at all.


#83 Stef Sandwich is more widely known by its German title, Die Grosse Sandwich. Alternatively, I have heard people refer to it in English as Into Great Sandwich.

#10 Persona

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 03:40 PM

Alternatively, I have heard people refer to it in English as Into Great Sandwich.

Which in the original Hebrew also includes milk, potato chips and cottage, cheese, please.

#11 Tyler

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:38 PM

The original posted list has a bunch of films without a year listed. Has that been fixed yet?

#12 Anna J

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:59 PM

I mentioned it because currently we have the French title, Le Grand Silence, rather than the German title, Die grosse Stille. I don't think the French title makes sense.


Are you guys looking at last year's webpages or at the list posted on the forums? Because we did make some changes based on your feedback from last year.

Ok, here's what I've got so far:

Listed by original foreign title only:
Ordet
Au Hasard Balthazar
Ikiru
La Promesse


Listed by English title only:
Into Great Silence

Listed with both titles:
Francesco, Guillare de Dio (The Flowers of St. Francis)
L'Enfant (The Child)

Not sure:
Ladri di biciclette (Bicycle Thieves) (The Bicycle Thief?)
Code Unknown: Incomplete Tales of Several Journeys
My Life to Live ("Vivre sa vie: Film en douze tableaux")

#13 Ron Reed

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 11:11 PM

Listed by original foreign title only:
Ordet
Au Hasard Balthazar
Ikiru
La Promesse

Perfect.

Listed by English title only:
Into Great Silence

Nah, I think we should lead with "Into Great Silence," and then provide the original German title (Die große Stille) as the alternate, since it is in fact widely used, and even appears on the cover of at least one English release of the DVD.

Listed with both titles:
Francesco, Guillare de Dio (The Flowers of St. Francis)
L'Enfant (The Child)

Yes. 100% agreed with L'Enfant. Peculiar that their previous film should be pretty much universally called "The Son" (rather than "Le Fils"), while this one almost invariably goes by its French name. But that's the way it seems to be. Anybody agree/disagree?

Not completely sure of the order of the St Frank flick: I personally would lead with "The Flowers of St. Francis" and put the Italian title as the alternate, but it could go either way.

Not sure:
Ladri di biciclette (Bicycle Thieves) (The Bicycle Thief?)
Code Unknown: Incomplete Tales of Several Journeys
My Life to Live ("Vivre sa vie: Film en douze tableaux")

Yeah, those are the tricky ones. The bike movie is so strange - I've heard fancy-schmancy cinema hounds argue passionately for the singular and for the plural in the English. Anybody know anyone who knows Italian? Is it really that ambiguous in the original Italian title? As for the order, I personally would put the English first: when you talk about the movie with an English-language person, you call it "The Bicycle Thief" or "The Bicycle Thieves" - only snobs actually venture the Italian in a normal conversation. Here's a suggestion as for which English version to use: go with what Criterion calls it. A ) They're smart. B ) That's the version people will be most likely to buy, or have, or order on Netflix. (Hmm, if that's a principle others would agree on, it might be worth checking the uncertain titles and see how Criterion titles them on their DVD covers. Rule of thumb: WWCD? What would Criterion do? [Ah, reading back through the thread, I see that SDG already alluded to Criterion re: this conundrum.]

Code Unknown, Stef and Sudge are both right: nobody ever calls it "Code Unknown: Incomplete Tales Of Several Journeys," but still, for a list like that, it probably makes sense to give the complete title. I'm sure in the blurb it will be referred to by its two-word title, so readers will learn what the cool kids say just by picking it up.

As for the French one, I only ever hear it called "Vivre sa vie," but in writing I see it both ways. A puzzle. (And bear in mind I live in Canada. So even though I don't know more than maybe two Canadians who speak French fluently, I bet there's more general comfort with at least trying a French word or title. Do Yanks say "Vivra sa vie" in conversation, or do they chicken out and say "My Life to Live"?

*

Separate thought. All the French titles, have someone who knows French check which words should be capitalized. The French are not like us. They tend to capitalize the first word of any title, as well as the next word if it's following Le or La or L' or Un or maybe other itty-bitty words, but then they mostly use small letters for the rest of the words in a title unless it's a proper noun. I think that's how it works. But like I say, the French are not like us. In fact, the French do not like us. Both sayings are true.

Edited by Ron Reed, 02 February 2011 - 11:46 AM.


#14 Ron Reed

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 11:18 PM

Ah, here I think there should probably be a rule. If the English title is familiar enough to include at all, put it first, with the foreign name in parens. If the English title is omitted, then use the foreign title, no parens. Flip-flopping the languages back and forth seems silly to me.

Well, colour me silly, but I say it's case by case. There will be instances when the foreign title is selected to go first because it's most commonly used, but the English title does show up often enough that it should be cited. Here I'm thinking of people who try to rent a movie, or order it on Netflix. Providing both if both are in circulation seems the right way to go. L'Enfant might be a good example. I strongly believe "L'Enfant" should be the main title given, but I do know of plenty of places where they just call the film "The Child." For a reader unfamiliar with the film, providing both versions of the title is a service, and would help them avoid confusion when seeking out or having a conversation about the film.

SDG seems silly to me.

#15 SDG

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:26 AM

Listed by English title only:
Into Great Silence

Nah, I think we should lead with "Into Great Silence," and then provide the original German title (Die große Stille) as the alternate, since it is in fact widely used, and even appears on the cover of at least one English release of the DVD.

Yes. What Ron said. (And what I said, since I said this before.)

Separate thought. All the French titles, have someone who knows French check which words should be capitalized. The French are not like us. They tend to capitalize the first word of any title, as well as the next word if it's following Le or La or L' or Un or maybe other itty-bitty words, but then they mostly use small letters for the rest of the words in a title unless it's a proper noun. I think that's how it works. But like I say, the French are not like us. In fact, the French do not like us. Both sayings are true.

Here is the rule for French: Capitalize the first noun and any preceding articles or adjectives. Anything after that is lowercase, except names or the first word in subtitles.


La Passion de Jeanne d'Arc
Le Fils
Au Hasard Balthazar
Trois Couleurs
Le Journal d'un cure de campagne
Jesus de Montreal
La Question humaine
L'Heure d'été
Ma Nuit chez Maud
Un condamne a mort s'est eschappe ou Le vent soufflé ou il veut [if I'm right in thinking that "Un" is the noun, "One condemned to death")
Vivre sa vie: Film en douze tableaux

Note: I have no idea about the rule for Italian or other languages.

Edited by SDG, 18 February 2011 - 08:49 AM.


#16 SDG

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:33 AM

Ah, here I think there should probably be a rule. If the English title is familiar enough to include at all, put it first, with the foreign name in parens. If the English title is omitted, then use the foreign title, no parens. Flip-flopping the languages back and forth seems silly to me.

Well, colour me silly, but I say it's case by case. There will be instances when the foreign title is selected to go first because it's most commonly used, but the English title does show up often enough that it should be cited. Here I'm thinking of people who try to rent a movie, or order it on Netflix. Providing both if both are in circulation seems the right way to go. L'Enfant might be a good example. I strongly believe "L'Enfant" should be the main title given, but I do know of plenty of places where they just call the film "The Child." For a reader unfamiliar with the film, providing both versions of the title is a service, and would help them avoid confusion when seeking out or having a conversation about the film.

I color you silly. Both titles are right there. I can see the value in providing the English title where it's useful and omitting it where it's not, and I think we should always include the title from the country of origin whether anyone knows it or not, but in cases where both the English title and the foreign title have some currency trying to parse which is more common and put that one first seems to me to make the list look silly.

For example, by your rule we will have this:

45 Day of Wrath (Vredens dag) (1943)
46 L'Enfant (The Child) (2005)
47 Close-Up (Nema-ye Nazdik) (1990)
48 Yi Yi: A One and a Two (Yi Yi) (2000)

That is just silly. English here, English there. Omit the English or put it in the same place if you include it, I say.

P.S. Since our list isn't alphabetized I don't think we need to append articles at the ends of titles (Child, The).

Edited by SDG, 02 February 2011 - 06:35 AM.


#17 Persona

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 08:23 AM

P.S. Since our list isn't alphabetized I don't think we need to append articles at the ends of titles (Child, The).

Strongly agree.

#18 Ron Reed

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 11:43 AM

For example, by your rule we will have this:

45 Day of Wrath (Vredens dag) (1943)
46 L'Enfant (The Child) (2005)
47 Close-Up (Nema-ye Nazdik) (1990)
48 Yi Yi: A One and a Two (Yi Yi) (2000)

That is just silly. English here, English there. Omit the English or put it in the same place if you include it, I say.


Well, that's exactly how those titles appeared on last year's list, and I think they made - and make - perfect sense. (Except for Yi-Yi, where it is in fact silly to repeat the title without the subtitle. However, it should be hyphenated. As it was on last year's quite thoroughly correct list.)

In fact I clicked through all the entries in last year's list, and they pretty much looked correct. A lot of the oddities this time around were correct last year. ("Ikiru," for example.)

The only title on last year's list that will carry forward to this year's list which I would suggest changing would be "Summer / The Green Ray," where I would probably list "The Green Ray" first: as Leary says in the opening line of his blurb, The Green Ray is "sometimes known as “Summer” due to a quirk in its American distribution." Though as Persona points out, since the titles aren't listed alphabetically, and as SDG points out both titles are right there for people to see, it's not a big deal.

And SDG is definitely right about this:

P.S. Since our list isn't alphabetized I don't think we need to append articles at the ends of titles (Child, The).

Or "Enfant, L' "

Edited by Ron Reed, 02 February 2011 - 11:44 AM.


#19 Ron Reed

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 12:14 PM

Another set of comments on the lists from previous years.

I sure hope we keep the current 2010 list and its blurbs intact. The new 2011 list should be provided separately: if you're keeping the same write-ups for films the two lists have in common, which makes sense, I would still want to maintain the 2010 list as well.

On the Forums page, the link to The Top100 List (2006) mistakenly leads to the A&F Top 100 Films (2010) list. I think that's misleading. Could we provide at least a basic copy of the 2006 list at the end of that link, even if it doesn't include links to blurbs. (Or, again, link the titles in that list to our existing blurbs where available?)

The link to the 2005 list actually provides the 2005 list, as well as links to brief write-ups. I hope we maintain that.

The link to the 2004 list does provide the 2004 list, but the links are broken. I really hope you keep the list intact, but might want to de-link it? Or provide links to the current blurbs?

Heck, I might and others here might be willing to work on blurbs for films on those older lists that are not represented on the 2005, 2010 or 2011 lists, and therefore now have no blurb available. Not in the next month or so, but after that I could likely pitch in.

Edited by Ron Reed, 02 February 2011 - 12:15 PM.


#20 SDG

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 12:23 PM

Well, that's exactly how those titles appeared on last year's list, and I think they made - and make - perfect sense.

I vaguely recall thinking it was silly last year too. I still think so. Can't remember what discussion we had around it, though.



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